Latex inside Pure Latex Bliss Topper--Does this look right?

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

I’ve been a long-time lurker, and I’m thankful for all of the thorough posts on this web site.

Over the last year or so, I’ve spent a lot of time here reading, as part of my search for a replacement mattress. Just recently (Sept. 2013), my wife and I settled on a Pamper mattress set and a 3" fast response topper. We purchased everything from a local retailer who carries Pure Latex Bliss.

We’ve had trouble sleeping on the mattress/topper from the time we received it. We both feel it is too firm, and I feel that it is also too warm. We’ve been discussing options with our sales rep. We are allowed one comfort exchange, but we haven’t yet used it. We’ve also thought about modifying the feel of the assembly by adding additional layers. All of this is background to my questions.

Last Friday, I unzipped the cover on our topper for the first time. I was really surprised by what I saw. While I knew that a king latex topper would need a seam, I didn’t think it would be off center. More importantly, the height of the latex varied significantly across the width of the topper, by at least 5% as best I can estimate after drawing lines over photos I took.

I’ve attached a few photos to my post. They show the top of the topper, with several longitudinal zones present. Another photo shows the bottom of the topper, which appears relatively flat. The final photo shows the edge profile. In the last photo, you can clearly see that the height of the latex varies across the width of the topper.

For those of you who know a lot about manufacturing, can you think of a reason that talalay latex would end up looking like this? Would you sell this as first-quality latex in a topper? Can you imagine your QC process allowing this one to slip through?

On a separate note, the foundation we ordered with our set was damaged when it was shipped to our retailer. Our retailer didn’t want to delay delivery, so we’ve been using a substitute. Our retailer has offered to replace the foundation, but we’ve told them to hold off until we are sure this is the mattress we want to keep.

Overall, this has been a very frustrating and disappointing experience. At this point, my wife and I would prefer to go with a different manufacturer of latex mattresses, but our retailer only offers latex products from PLB. I’ve contacted PLB and asked them to help us get a refund. Haven’t yet heard back from them.

Any suggestions or comments?

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2

Given your research and the local source, did you try the combo firmness first before purchasing?

Some Pamper specs:

Pamper version1, v2
1" 19 ILD plush Talalay comfort layer
6" 40 ILD super firm Talalay support layer
1" 50 ILD super firm Talalay base layer (was polyfoam in v1)

Pamper v3
2" 21 ILD soft ActiveFUSION Talalay comfort layer
6" 40 ILD super firm Talalay support layer
1" 50 ILD super firm Talalay base layer

Presumably you have the v3 build? What’s the ILD of the 3" topper? 28ish ILD could feel firmish, even more so on the earlier builds.

The off center seam in the topper is not significant. The uneven thickness is not typical but is possible. Yours seems a bit more than I would expect… perhaps enough to negotiate a replacement, and softer while you’re at it, if necessary. But, you could flip it over and probably never notice it.

I wonder if the topper’s ‘fast response’ formula breathes less than regular Talalay? Wool in the topper cover or mattress pad might improve ventilation.

What is the base? A slatted base would ensure best ventilation from below.

zzz

3

sleeping,

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Yes, we tried the combination before purchasing. We made sure to try it on different occasions and at different stores.

I believe these are the specs for our version of the Pamper:

8" Natural Talalay
2" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 21 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 40 ILD

Before purchasing the set, I created a spreadsheet of the specs of the different versions of Pamper using posts from this web site. I don’t think the current version includes any 50 ILD latex, but I could be wrong.

I’ve read here an estimate of 14 for the ILD of the topper. PLB told me 15. This is the softest topper that PLB makes. They used to make a 19 ILD topper, which can still be ordered as a special order item according to PLB.

I’ve thought about adding some wool. That was one of the reasons I unzipped the topper cover.

We are using a PLB foundation. It’s just not the one that was ordered for our bed. The retailer had a mismatched split king foundation that they substituted.

4

Hi Sleeping,

[quote]Pamper v3
2" 21 ILD soft ActiveFUSION Talalay comfort layer
6" 40 ILD super firm Talalay support layer
1" 50 ILD super firm Talalay base layer

Presumably you have the v3 build? What’s the ILD of the 3" topper? 28ish ILD could feel firmish, even more so on the earlier builds.[/quote]

Just to clarify the v3 doesn’t have the 1" layer on the bottom (it was added to the thickness of the top layer).

I would say “ditto” to these comments. It’s not likely to affect the feel or performance of the topper but is certainly possible depending on how accurately or carefully the layers are cut.

A PLB Talalay GL fast response topper would be in the range of 15 ILD or so and this in combination with 2" of 21 ILD latex would be very soft and thick for most people. Your weight may be playing a role in this if you are heavier than the norm and sinking through the top layers more and feeling more of the firmness of the layers below but this would be quite unusual with 5" of soft latex.

The warmth could also be coming from the softness and thickness of the upper layers because when you sink in more deeply into any soft foam materials it will be more insulating and warmer than a mattress where you sink in less (you can see some of the variables in temperature regulation in post #2 here).

While your weight could be playing a role … I’m somewhat mystified at 5" of soft latex being to firm for someone.

Do you have any other layers on top of the mattress (such as a mattress pad or protector) besides your sheets which could be affecting your mattress?

What are your sleeping positions?

I would also be curious if your foundation is somehow playing a role in this.

Are you sure that the mattress is too firm? What are the specific symptoms you are experiencing and where are you experiencing them? Sometimes a mattress that is too soft can result in “symptoms” that mimic pressure points because the joints can be out of their neutral alignment (hips in particular) and can feel sore or uncomfortable as a result.

Phoenix

5

Phoenix,

Thanks for your comments.

It appears that you and Sleeping are only mildly concerned about the varying height of the latex. Earlier today, I emailed these photos to one of this site’s member manufacturers, and they told me they would only sell the topper in the photos as a second/irregular. When I asked them about the position of the seam, they said they make their king toppers with the seam exactly in the middle. I’m hoping that more manufacturers who read this forum will comment on the condition of the topper shown. I’m eager to hear more about the QC processes of manufacturers who use talalay latex.

As to my comfort, that issue is secondary right now.

My weight is unlikely to be the problem. I’m 6’2", 170 lbs. I run four times per week, and the nights after I run are the most uncomfortable. I can’t have any covers over my legs. I’ve never had this problem before, and I’m running much shorter distances than I did in my youth.

I’m not sure whether the foundation is the issue. I believe I have one of the old style PLB foundations and one of the new style PLB foundations. The retailer made it sound as if the only difference was cosmetic.

We started with a mattress protector (required for comfort exchange participation) over the entire stack, and later switched to having the mattress protector under the topper. Neither position is comfortable. We use sheets from Peacock Alley (310 TC, Egyptian cotton).

I typically sleep on my side and my back. I can’t sleep on my side on the Pamper/topper combination. My shoulder becomes very sore. The same is true for my wife.

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[quote=“djm” post=25745]sleeping,

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Yes, we tried the combination before purchasing. We made sure to try it on different occasions and at different stores.

I believe these are the specs for our version of the Pamper:

8" Natural Talalay
2" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 21 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 40 ILD

Before purchasing the set, I created a spreadsheet of the specs of the different versions of Pamper using posts from this web site. I don’t think the current version includes any 50 ILD latex, but I could be wrong.

I’ve read here an estimate of 14 for the ILD of the topper. PLB told me 15. This is the softest topper that PLB makes. They used to make a 19 ILD topper, which can still be ordered as a special order item according to PLB.

I’ve thought about adding some wool. That was one of the reasons I unzipped the topper cover.

We are using a PLB foundation. It’s just not the one that was ordered for our bed. The retailer had a mismatched split king foundation that they substituted.[/quote]

It seems the Pamper spec does not include the 1" 50 ILD base layer.

The 2" 21 ILD + 3" 14 ILD topper feeling firm is a mystery, unless you are laying through them onto the 40 ILD. Also, your term ‘estimate’ is curious. I have a 3" 19 ILD LI blended here. It feels gushy soft. I tried to mimic your hand pose in the picture… I want to say my 19 ILD looked softer in hand than your 14 ILD. Another observation… I have a 44 ILD and a 36 ILD… both of these support core layers exhibit the mold lines in your pic. I have a 28 ILD and a 19 ILD… neither exhibit any surface lines… very smooth surfaces. I’m kind of wondering if your topper is really 14 ILD… or a much heavier ILD. If picking up a corner feels rather lightweight, then it must be as advertised.

If it is 5" of soft comfort layer, you should be sinking into it and should find it a bit troublesome to roll over without pushing yourself up and out of it a bit.

zzz

7

sleeping,

Your comments are very interesting.

I used the term ‘estimate’ when I said 14 ILD, because I think there was some question about the ILD of PLB toppers in the forum here. When I spoke with a rep at PLB, they told me their toppers are 15 ILD.

I’d love to know whether the latex in my topper is really 15 ILD. Any suggestions for an objective test to do at home to estimate the ILD?

It is not difficult at all to move about the bed. We certainly don’t feel the need to push up and out to roll over.

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Hi djm,

I would agree that based on your pictures it would be questionable whether it should be sold as a first quality layer (and I think you would have an argument to replace it) both because of the irregularities in the pincores (in one of the pictures) and on the height variances but it’s unlikely that either of these will affect the feel and performance of the topper. You can see some comments on glued layers in post #2 here.

Your middle picture also looks odd (too thin and long) but perhaps that’s the perspective of the picture. It also looks like it has the glue seam horizontally across the layer rather than vertical. Is this the same topper as the other two pictures (which look very different).

PLB is owned by the actual manufacturer of the latex and most manufacturers order their latex directly from latex International who fabricates the latex before it’s shipped. Some of them will cut it to topper thicknesses themselves using their own fabricator and some will order it in pre-cut layers but the actual 6" Talalay core would usually be shipped with the glue seam already in place in the core layer.

It may not be your actual weight so much as how well the design of the mattress matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). With your weight it’s unlikely that you would be feeling the firmness of the 40 ILD support layer so it would likely be from something else.

As Sleeping also mentioned with 5" of soft latex in your mattress … 3" of which is ultra soft … it would be very unusual that this was too firm to allow your shoulders to sink in enough. Because you are both experiencing the same issue it could point to a defective layer in more ways than just cosmetics or that somehow the latex is firmer than it’s supposed to be and the first thing I would suggest is to talk with either your retailer or PLB themselves to exchange the topper to remove this as a possibility.

The PLB blended Talalay topper is 14 ILD while the PLB Talalay GL fast response topper is 15 ILD although ILD is never exact or consistent across a layer in any version of latex (Talalay is generally the most consistent though). They first take an average of 9 measurements on different parts of the core and then rate the topper as the ILD rating that is closest to the average of the 9 measurements. You can see the ILD ratings of Latex International’s blended Talalay and Talalay GL materials on their site here. A difference of a few ILD is not detectable for the large majority of people. Both of these would be ultra soft and in most cases would actually be too soft for many people.

Your experience is somewhat of a mystery to me a well but if the topper is actually 15 ILD and a replacement has the same symptoms for you then I would be looking at the possibility it’s too soft and/or thick rather than too firm. Can you describe the source of the pain in your shoulder and whether it seems to be a surface pain (like what you would experience if you were side sleeping on the floor) or is it more in the shoulder joint (which could indicate an alignment issue or muscle strain with your shoulder)

Have you slept on just the basic mattress and can you describe any differences in your experience when you lie on it without the topper vs the combination. Perhaps this may provide a clue to what is happening.

Phoenix

9

Phoenix,

Thanks for your response. I’ll add a more detailed response in the morning, but wanted to address the issue you raised in the quote above.

I should clarify that the middle picture was taken as a side-to-side image, while the top image was taken as an end-to-end image. Moreover, in the middle picture, I was trying to show that the bottom of the topper is just about perfectly flat, so I folded the topper along its horizontal axis. What looks like a horizontal seam is actually a vertical seam photographed at 90 degrees. Hope this makes sense.

10

Hi djm,

That makes sense to me now … I couldn’t quite figure out what I was looking at.

Phoenix