Latex Mattress Purchase Help

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

I am looking for some help/clarification to make a purchase decision on a full Latex Bed.

Quick backgound. I am 5’8" and 150 lbs, very active “elite” athlete, my wife is 5’3" 150 lbs. Our primary goal for a mattress is consistant with the PPP, my biggest priorty being proper alignment during sleep. We are both typically side sleepers.

At this point, I am most strongly considering latex, 100% natural variety. I have found a couple of what I believe to be excellent sellers from your mattress forum, thank you. Unfortunately, there are a few inconsistancies in what I am being told by the sellers, so was hoping you could help clarify.

  • Is there a difference in using 2 x 3" thick pieces vs 1 x 6" piece for the support layer? Some sellers say no difference, some say the 6" single piece will be more consistant and more durable.

  • Is there a difference in durability between 100% Natural Talalay and 100 % Natural Dunlap. In regard to the Talalay, everybody I am working with is using Latex International, for Dunlap some use Latex Green, some use Aprico. Any tangible difference between Latex Green and Aprico?

  • All sellers are saying talay is the best for the comfort/pressure relief layer (one of the few things they all agree on!). Some say the support core should be Dunlop, some say Talalay. Is there really any difference in durability or support?

  • final layer/cover. some add and say using a wool pad adds to the comfort and support of the overall mattress, some say as little between me and the latex as possible is better, as latex provides the optimum comfort and support.

Any insight on this you can provide would be greatly appreciated, as I assume you are a “neutral” party with a great deal of experience in this.

2

Hi BrianSxx,

I think that in “theory” only … two 3" layers that were exactly the same ILD as a single 6" layer could be less durable over the course of a long lifetime because they will act more independently and abrade each other slightly but I don’t think the difference would be significant or even measurable in “real life” terms and the other durability factors (see post #4 here) such as the firmness of the layers would play a bigger role. It certainly wouldn’t be a concern of mine.

I don’t think there would be a meaningful difference in the same type of latex (such as 100% Dunlop) made by different manufacturers. I would treat them as equals. 100% natural Talalay on the other hand would probably be less durable in lower ILD’s than either 100% natural Dunlop or blended Talalay although in higher ILD’s I would treat it as being equivalent to other types of latex (see post #2 here). This may be more true with Latex International Talalay than Radium Talalay who have told me that their 100% natural uses a different curing paste in the lower ILD’s and that any difference in durability between their blend and their 100% natural is insignificant. 100% natural Talalay was only introduced in 2005 so it doesn’t have the same track record as blended Talalay and I have talked with many manufacturers who have seen both blended Talalay and 100% natural Dunlop mattresses in firmer ILD’s last for decades.

I would treat blended Talalay and 100% natural Dunlop as equals in terms of durability. Dunlop is a denser material than Talalay and has a higher compression modulus (it gets firmer faster with deeper compression) so with a Dunlop and Talalay layer of the same thickness and the same ILD at 25% compression (where ILD is measured) they would be equally “supportive”. At a lower percentage compression Dunlop would be softer and with a greater percentage compression Dunlop would be firmer than Talalay. they have a different response curve in other words so any difference in support can be compensated for with a change in ILD. Talalay is most often used for comfort layers because it often comes in softer ILD’s than Dunlop (although there is an increasing amount of softer Dunlop on the market now than there was a few years ago) and in the same ILD it will form a deeper pressure relieving cradle than Dunlop (which can also be compensated for by using a lower ILD of Dunlop). In effect … it’s a preference choice in both a comfort or support layer because they both have a different “feel”. I personally prefer the “feel” of Talalay for example in both comfort and support layers while my daughter much prefers the “feel” of Dunlop in every layer of her mattress so I know that the preference for one over the other doesn’t run in families :).

Again … this is strictly a preference issue. Some people will prefer to use a quilting layer of polyfoam, natural fibers such as wool, synthetic polyester fibers, or even a thin layer of memory foam to dampen the surface resilience of the latex and create a more “relaxed” sleeping surface (at the cost of reducing the ability of the latex to contour to the body profile). A wool quilting layer can also add some temperature regulating benefits as well and can also be used as the fire barrier for the mattress. Other people prefer to use a stretch knit cover and sleep more directly on the latex so it can contour to the body more effectively and have less effect on the more resilient “feel” and response of the latex than with a quilting material on top of it.

Phoenix

3

Thank you for your usual great response. As a guide to others using the forum for mattress purchase I will summarize my decision. I am 5’8" 150 lbs, by wife is 5’3" 150 lbs.
I chose to go with a 2 layer construction, with a support layer of 6 inch 100% natural Dunlap with a 26-28 ILD, and a 3 inch comfort layer of 100 % Natural Talalay with N1 (15-19 ILD) from Latex International. (I may change this to N2, 20-24 ILD, as the supplier will bring both layers at time of delivery and will let me try both!). I chose a 2 layer contruction (unglued) because I am cheap, and I know that the 3 inch comfort layer will not last as long as the 6 inch support layer, so 15 years from now when the support layer is no longer doing the job, I only have to buy a new 3 inch topper at 25% of the cost of a full mattress! For the cover, I chose a knit organic cotton, to get the maximum benefit from the conformance of the latex. As a fire retardent, my supplier is using a thin layer of a nano coated silca fabric, which is green certified, and will someday probably become an industry standard. This technology was pioneered by G3i, and it is very environmently friendly and healthy.
For materials, I considered Latex International and Radium for the talalay, and chose LI because they seem to put a little more emphasis in pressure relief in their design. I chose talalay for the comfort layer because it has the best properties for pressure relief. For the support layer, I chose Dunlop, because it is denser and ultimately more durable than talalay, and I believe its compresion response curve is better suited for a support piece. I considered Arpico and Latex Green for this, and chose Aprico, as they are a much older company, and one of the only latex companies that own all of their plantations and have full control of every aspect.
For the end sellers, I interviewed over a dozen companies, and ultimately narrowed down to 2 “finalists” who both seemed to have excellent knowledge of how to set up a mattress for my size, weight and sleeping patterns, AND had high quality materials, AND placed more emphasis on helping than selling, AND had the best pricing. These companies were Mattresses.net AKA Arizona Premium Mattress, and Plush Beds. I can HIGHLY recommend either of these companies.
My final decision was Plush Beds, because they offered a knit cover (APM did not offer this, as they have not figured out how to get a similar eco friendly fire barrier to Plush Beds, YET) and Plush Beds factory is within 20 miles of my home, and they offered to deliver the mattress along with 2 choices of the comfort layer, so I could try them both and pick what I prefered.
Some other comments-
Warranties- these vary from 20 years prorated to 30 years none prorated within the companies I reviewed. The most common was 20 years, 10 years full coverage, the final 10 years prorated. It is my opinion that this is an absolute non factor. Almost all of these companies can offer the same materials from the same sources. Pick the best materials, and you will get your longest life! All of the warranties contained exclusions for impressions less than a depth of at least 1/2 inch and at most 1.5 inches. It is unlikely that a quality latex will ever develop an impression greater than 1/4", so none of these warranties are meaningful beyond material defects, which should be determined well within the 1st year. Pick the best materials and you will get your longest life! (repeated, but REALLY important)
It is also important to be careful when comparing final cost to be sure you are comparing apples to apples. Many companies will state “Natural Latex”, which is typically marketing speak for synthetic blend. This is still a quality material, but is not the same as a 100 % natural latex, and it is not the same cost. Most offer free shipping, but some do not. Shipping can be in the $ 150- 200 range, so make sure you understand this. Tax may be an add on, or not- again this can be $ 150 +/-.
The biggest variance is in trial/exchange policies and warranty returns. Some companies cover all frieght, both ways, some one way, some not at all. One company had an 18% return charge + shipping !!!
OK- I hope this is helpful to someone :slight_smile: It was a lot of work, but I expect this to last 15 years +, so it was worth it.

4

If you live so close to the factory, you may as well go there and try out the beds first.
I am nearly the same specs as you, and I have a dunlop 31-35 core + 2" 28ild talalay topper +1" 22 ild topper, and I think my bed may be too soft! So try it out before you throw down big $$$.

Also, keep in mind what phoenix said about the compression curve of dunlop, because the first inch of that 6" core is going to be SOFT!.

unless you know for sure you like soft beds, they can feel great at first, until you wake up the next morning with a backache. Ask me how I know.

Also, 100% natural talalay is not as durable as blended in such soft ild numbers.

Finally, I want to negate your high acclaim of Arizona mattress company, having already bought from them.

5

Hi BrianSxx,

Thanks for taking the time to share such detailed thoughts and insights about your purchase … I appreciate it!

Just for clarity … I’ll make a few comments about a couple of things that may not be accurate in your comments …

I don’t think that in real life terms two 3" layers would be less durable than a single 6" layer and in some cases it may be more durable (depending on the specific combination of 3" layers you chose). The deeper layers of the mattress will also usually last longer than the top layer (which is the one that would generally be most subject to softening) regardless of whether it was a single layer or two layers underneath it.

I’m also not so sure this is accurate although you will find some manufacturers that are convinced that either one or the other is more durable than the alternative and both sides of the discussion are often convinced they are correct. Both blended Talalay and 100% natural Dunlop have a long history of lasting decades in firmer versions and I would treat them both as equals in practical terms. There isn’t enough history with 100% natural Talalay in firmer versions to really know for certain how it rates in terms of durability (Latex International only came out with their all natural version in 2005) although in firmer versions I suspect that it will be roughly equivalent to its blended cousin.

There is some very interesting research being done on nanoparticle fillers that are being used to create inherent fire resistant fabrics. While much of the research into nanoparticles would only be understandable to those that were specialized in material sciences studies (which I’m not) … I can understand enough from the articles I’ve read that this is an area of very interesting research in terms of fire retardant properties as well as altering many other characteristics of various materials and fibers. A few examples are here and here.

My understanding though is that their fire barrier is an inherent viscose/silica fire barrier (see the description here) rather than a coated silica fire barrier. These and other inherent fire retardant barriers are in fairly wide use in the industry already.

You certainly did some great research and it appears to me that you made a good choice that was clearly a good match for your criteria and personal value equation.

Most of all … congratulations on your new mattress … and I’m looking forward to your further feedback when you’ve had the chance to try both comfort layers and slept on the mattress for a bit.

Again … thanks for some great comments and feedback.

Phoenix

6

A couple of quick comments to add to your “clarifications”-

I chose a 2 layer contruction (unglued) because I am cheap, and I know that the 3 inch comfort layer will not last as long as the 6 inch support layer, so 15 years from now when the support layer is no longer doing the job, I only have to buy a new 3 inch topper at 25% of the cost of a full mattress!

  • What I meant here was specifically the softer top layer of talalay would wear out sooner than the denser layer underneath. This comment was inregard to the common practice of gluing all layers together, which if done means you replace the entire mattress when the weekest link wears out. So it is my recommendation to get at least the top layer unglued, as this will certainly wear out sooner than anything underneath it.

  • The durability of Dunlop vs Talalay is indeed highly debated. (FYI- I am a materials engineer). As the production processes used are not perfect, any two pieces of even the same material with same ILD will not have the exact same life. My consideration in this is what is at the root cause of the naterial break down. Rubber can deteriate from environmental influences such as sunlight, contact with chemicals (including those in a persons sweat), etc. I can have a significant amount of control on those factors, so I did not consider them in my evaluation. I specificaly focused on the break down due to repeated compression and recovery. The primary cause of break down for this is the amount of air in the product. The more air, the more opportunity for collapse of the air “pockets”, and ultimate break down of the material properties. Talalay in similar ILD ranges to Dunlop has more air, therfore I believe Dunlop should be reasonably expected to be more durable. I should also note that I am only considering 100 % Natural Talalay in this, as I want a green product so am not interested in a blended Talalay that is 60 or 70 % synthetic. I think it is also important to note that my evaluation of durability is likely more academic than practical. It is likely that either product used as a base layer will last a VERY long time :slight_smile:

Hope this adds to your already highly informative site

7

Hi BrianSxx,

The issues of durability have been the subject of many hundreds of hours of both research and conversations with manufacturers and specialists (including materials engineers that specialize in latex) and there is no consensus as to which type of latex is more durable between them. In practical terms … comparing the many factors involved in durability can be a matter of diminishing returns since both of them have advantages in certain conditions or with certain types of use.

It’s the comfort layer (on top) that will most likely “no longer be doing it’s job” not the support layer(s) so we would be in complete agreement if this is what you mean. The deeper and firmer support layers (whether they are a single 6" layer or two 3" layers) will generally last longer than a softer comfort layer and in either case you could replace the top layer of the mattress without replacing the deeper support layers.

Yes … this would be the norm and I completely agree with you about the benefits of unglued layers in a mattress that has a zip cover that gives you access to the layers inside it (see post #2 here).

I agree that this is highly debated and most of the “debate” that is easier to access on internet searches is fairly misleading or in many cases “biased” or sometimes completely inaccurate. There is a good list of substances and influences that can affect latex here but as you mentioned ozone and ultraviolet light are the two main culprits since most other substances wouldn’t reach the latex with a good cover and/or a mattress protector.

This isn’t quite correct because the cell structure will also play an important role in durability along with ILD differences (lower ILD’s are less dense) and to a lesser degree individual differences in the formulations and manufacturing methods between different manufacturers. The cell struts in Talalay are generally thicker and stronger than with Dunlop even though the overall density is lower. In practical terms … both materials (blended Talalay and 100% natural Dunlop) have a long history of lasting for decades (in firmer versions) so in “real life” terms it’s probably more accurate and practical to treat them as equals rather than getting bogged down in the many more technical variables that may make a more minor difference on one side or the other. 100% natural Talalay doesn’t have as long a history of use so the jury is still out on whether it will last as long as Dunlop or blended Talalay although my own thoughts are that lower ILD’s will be tend to be less durable while higher ILD’s (probably in the mid/high 20’s or so and higher) will likely be comparable with 100% natural Dunlop and blended Talalay of the same ILD. If you talk with Radium they will also tell you that their testing indicates that their 100% natural Talalay will be close to identical with their blended Talalay even in lower ILD’s because they use a different curing paste.

I agree with you that trying to compare them can be mostly academic and in most cases is more misleading than helpful because of all the different factors involved which is why I go out of my way to portray them as “equals” so that the durability of either type of latex isn’t an issue in people’s choice and their choice is more about the differences in characteristics and personal preferences between them. Durability comparisons between the two materials (outside of lower ILD’s for 100% natural Talalay) are more of a “red herring” than anything else IMO. I see far too many people or businesses trying to portray one as being “better” or “more durable” than the other when the evidence taken “as a whole” doesn’t really support either side and they are more “different” than better or worse in any meaningful way. As you mentioned … I think that the most accurate portrayal is that both will last for a VERY long time in a mattress that is a suitable choice in terms of PPP and firmness levels (and not as long if the choice of a latex mattress is less suitable and where even the relatively minor amount of softening that will still happen can put someone outside of the range of softness/firmness that is suitable for them).

I appreciate your comments and it’s always good to have a different perspectives :slight_smile:

I don’t think that the ongoing discussions surrounding the topic will ever likely end so my main goal on this site is to provide more practical and “real life” information that helps to minimize durability considerations as a meaningful basis for comparison between them which I believe is the most “accurate” approach in any practical terms.

Phoenix