Latex mattress questions

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
8

Hi Phoenix,

I chatted with someone at BB and he told me that their LI talatech blend is 40% natural, and he said he was positive and that info is on LI web site. Somewhere on this forum you said talatech is 30% natural. I couldn’t find the info on LI web site. What is the correct info?

The salesperson also told me that their queen size topper is 60 X 80 and not glued/laminated. Is it possible? (I’ve read that individual mold size is approximately 6" x 80" x 39" here. https://www.sleepez.com/blogs/latex-mattress-buyers-guide) I may prefer non-glued 2 pieces instead. However, their topper covers are not removable so separate pieces may not be a good idea (in case pieces shifts in the cover it may be difficult to readjust).

I gave the weight etc info to the sales person, then asked him what he thinks about 24 ILD top 36 ILD bottom layers. He said, “that would feel very firm and the big change from ILD would not offer the best feel”. Then proceeded to came up with “36/28 is what I would recommend or 32/24”. Is there any truth to this assessment? (i.e. 24 to 36 is too big of a jump, and therefore, I would feel mattress to be too hard.) when I asked again which combination he recommends he said 32/24, and the reason was “based off the overall weight I believe this would provide sufficient support and also allow the best overall comfort”. I know you are a big proponent of actually trying out products at a store in person, which really makes sense of course … but if I don’t have the choice to try at a store … so I am seeking general guidance. I would like to trust the salesperson but at the same time if he is wrong about some of the info I asked above, it is natural to be skeptical.

Also about the bamboo non-removable cover – is it considered average quality material in terms of among other cover choices (bamboo covers in general, since I never had an experience)? Breathability and durability is important to me. I have touched it at a store and it does feel nice. The salesperson at the store said it is not washable though. I plan to put 2 covered layers into a larger cover, which I will wash occasionally.

Your input would be appreciated. :wink:

9

Hi Martina,

Post #8 here has some topper guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice for a top layer in term of thickness and softness using your experience on the base mattress or layer along with your body type and sleeping positions and also includes a link to a list of some of the better online sources for all the different types of latex I’m aware of.

You can read more about the different types of latex in post #6 here and about blended vs 100% natural Talalay in post #2 here.

There is more information about dust mites and allergies in post #2 here.

Phoenix

10

Hi Phoenix,
Please see post # 8 when you get a chance. Thank you. :slight_smile:

11

Martina,

The actual blend varies depending on the specifics of the core but “about” 30 / 70 would be closer in most cases than “about” 40 / 60 although the difference is really insignificant because they formulate the latex blend for consistency of firmness and feel and variations in raw materials can mean that a slight difference in compounding may be necessary.

Latex International has both a queen size mold and twin XL molds. The unglued queen layers are less common (and can be more costly) but either way you don’t feel any glue seams anyway.

There would be some truth to this for some people yes. For others it may not matter and some may even prefer the more solid “feel” of feeling a layer that was much firmer under the comfort layer. A smaller differential between layers would probably be a “safer” choice on average … especially for those who were sensitive to a change in firmness from one layer to another in some types of mattress constructions (it would also depend on he thickness of the comfort layer and on the specifics of the mattress cover and quilting). Everything in mattress design and theory is based on averages and “fitting” a mattress to different people and each person has a different body type, weight distribution, sleeping positions, sensitivity, health issues, physiology, and preferences and what works perfectly for one may not work nearly as well for another.

Bamboo is very breathable and wicks moisture very well and has a very “soft” hand feel. There is more general information about bamboo fabrics and other viscose types of fabrics and how they compare to other fabrics (like cotton) in post #7 here and the links it includes.

Phoenix

12

Now I am leaning towards 24/32 ILDs… In any case, I am seeking input from those who researched / purchased latex toppers. Thank you.

13

Hi Phoenix, thanks to you, participants, and this forum, I am enjoying learning about mattress buying process.

Further questions:

Reminder: I am going to buy 2 layers of 3" blended talalay latex toppers to create a DIY mattress.

  1. Talatech Latex from Latex International – If a store sells a 19 ILD topper, is it exactly 19 ILD, or they don’t really know exact #, but know to a certain degree, say between 18 to 20 ILD, for example. In other words, does LI measures and labels EVERY 6" foam with a specific ILD #?

  2. So assuming 19 ILD foam is really 19, how long would it last on average with a normal sleeping usage? How long would it take for a body impression to form, say for a person that weighs 130 LB? I am potentially buying a 19 ILD foam, and concerned about its durability.

  3. I am also concerned about the supportability of 19 ILD (3" high). The support layer would be 36 ILD (3" high). Based on our measurements (5’ 3", 126 LBs and 5’ 8", 130 LBs), do I need to be concerned about alignment issues because the comfort layer being too soft?

  4. We have an option of getting 28 / 36 ILDs instead of 19 / 36 ILDs. (I am ruling out 19 / 28 because we definitely want to avoid alignment issues.) In my past experience of approx. 32 (talalay) / approx. 35 (dunlop), I felt the top layer needs to be softer to a) relieve pressure issues and b) get a better lumbar support. I don’t know how much of the difference we would feel between 28 / 36 and 32 / 35, because if you average those 2 numbers they are very close. I thought about averaging to try to get the overall feeling, although I don’t know if this is an indication of anything.
    (28 + 36) / 2 = 32
    (32 + 35) / 2 = 33.5
    (19 + 36) / 2 = 27.5

Do you think I would notice the difference between 28 / 36 and 32 / 35?

  1. Do you have any other pros & cons comments regarding 28 / 36 vs. 19 / 36?

By the way, you said earlier,

I like the sound of “the more solid “feel” of feeling a layer that was much firmer under the comfort layer”, but, obviously to a certain degree, and I am not sure 19 / 36 is going too far … :slight_smile: There is also a possibility of getting 1 topper (36) from one company, and get another one (say, 24 ILD) from another store, which will make the buying process more complicated.

Thank you. :slight_smile:

14

Just to add my experience… I bought an Aloe Alexis (July 23rd delivery, 2013) from Brooklyn Bedding 36/32 ILD and loved it but it was a little too firm even for a 6’ man who weighs 215 lbs. I changed the 32 layer to 28 and have kept it this way. I still find it firm but not to the point of being painful.
Good luck with your decision and I hope you wind up as happy as I did.
Jeff

15

Hi Martina,

When you are looking at building your own DIY mattress I would make sure you have read post #15 here and post #2 here and post #5 here and post #7 here so that you have realistic expectations about the time and testing and trial and error it can take and the learning curve involved to end up with the design that is the best match for you.

ILD is never exact although it is closer with blended Talalay than with other types of latex. Latex International blended Talalay measures the ILD in nine places on the core (Radium uses 15) and then they average out the ILD’s and “rate” the mattress as the rating that is closest to the average ratings they measured. The individual measurements can have a variance in the range of +/- 2 ILD (below detection).

There is no way to answer this with a specific number of years because there are too many variables and durability is relative to each person. There is more about the factors that can affect the useful life of a mattress in post #4 here and the posts it links to. The one thing that you can safely say is that latex is the most durable of all the foam types.

There is no formula that can predict this and a DIY project may also involve some testing that you can use as reference points and some trial and error. ILD is only one of many factors that are part of building a mattress that “matches” your specific needs and preferences (see post #2 here).

That depends on how sensitive you are and only your own experience can tell whether you would notice a difference. Because you are looking at middle and bottom layers and your weight is light the difference would probably be small but some would feel it and some wouldn’t (more the difference between 28 and 32 than the 1 ILD difference between the bottom layer which is generally below detection and the deeper layers are the ones you “feel” the least). Once again there is no way to predict this for any individual person. I should also mention that “averaging” ILD’s isn’t really an effective way to decide on layering because it doesn’t take the compression modulus of different layer thicknesses into account and the number of inches you are averaging (which isn’t necessarily the actual thickness of any layers) can also make a difference (depending on how far different parts of your body sink into the mattress).

With only 6" of latex I would think that 28 / 36 would be much firmer than most people of your weight would be comfortable with but it would also depend on your body type and sleeping positions.

Phoenix

16

Season’s greetings everyone!

Hello Phoenix,

I recently bought 2 pieces of 3" thick blended Talalay mattress toppers, 19 and 36 ILDs. We slept on it for about a week. The toppers are covered with bamboo material on the top (the bottom material feels like a thick paper towel).

I happen to have a mattress protector for up to 7"-high mattress, so I put those 2 toppers in them to keep them together and clean. The protector’s label says “Rest-Guard: sleep surface 100% cotton (laminate: 100% polyurethane)”.

On top of that, I have an average mattress cover (the surface is 100% cotton but the rest of the quilted material is synthetic).

My sleeping experience so far is:

• I often wake up feeling hotter than traditional spring mattress. Is the hot feeling coming from the polyurethane laminate? If the laminate does not make much difference, I would rather keep the protector.

Q1. Should I remove the protector?

Q2. Should I keep the protector, but look for a wool mattress cover to reduce the hot feeling (i.e., replacing the mattress cover with the existing one)?

• Compared with our firmer latex experience before, the mattress is softer. We both feel we went the right direction. I still don’t think the top layer (19 ILD) is contouring to my body enough because I still get lower back pain. I am guessing this is due to the fact that my hip does not sink into the foam deep enough, so that the lumbar area does not have enough support. So when I put a pillow under the knees or standing the knees make me feel better. I had to do this in the past, and my hope was once I have a proper latex foam I don’t have to rely on pillows under my knees.

When I try to train my back without the pillows under the knees, I get lower back pain, so I tend to sleep on my side more often than before. Then I have to place a pillow between the knees, as well as get the higher pillow for side sleeping purposes. (When I sleep on my back, I only have a small towel under my neck, so my head is not lifted at all, touching the sheet.) So I have to change positions several times during the night, which means waking up multiple times.

Q3. Does the 19 ILD topper take time to break in to be softer? How long should I wait before making the judgment?

Q4. Should I try removing the mattress protector for this reason as well, before making the judgment whether 19 + 36 ILDs are the right choice?

Q5. It may be possible to switch the bottom layer from 36 ILD to 28 ILD. I chose 36 to ensure we won’t have alignment issues. Is it possible that 28 would be firm enough for our weight (we weigh 126 LBs and 130 LBs)? If so, again, how long should I wait before changing the base lawyer. (I believe we have about 1 month from purchase to exchange, probably with a fee.) I am hoping somehow we won’t have to exchange the base layer, partly because we won’t know if 28 may be too soft.

Q6. What is the possibility that we will have alignment issues if we switch to 28 ILD? (I would rather not take any risks on this front.) Under the toppers will be solid wood floor.

Thank you.

17

Hi Martina,

This sounds like it is a mattress encasement/protector which has a semi breathable waterproof membrane. They can can reduce airflow and increase sleeping temperature.

Is this an actual mattress cover (that surrounds the layers inside) or a mattress pad? If it has a synthetic fill material such as polyester fibers then this can also contribute to heat issues. Depending on the fill material or batting as well it can also reduce the ability of the latex to contour to your body profile.

Assuming that both of these are surrounding the latex layers the first thing I would check is the effect of removing the protector with the membrane as this is the most likely “culprit” or at least the layer which is having the most effect on temperature. Synthetic sheets can also make a difference. You can see some of the factors that together can affect sleeping temperature in post #2 here but many people have found that removing a membrane type of protector can reduce sleeping temperatures to within “acceptable” limits.

Replacing the mattress cover with a cooler type of cover (such as a wool quilted cover) or adding a wool mattress pad would probably also help but I wouldn’t replace the cover until you have first made sure that other less costly changes don’t work well enough.

All materials will soften slightly at the beginning and there can also be some adjustment period as well. This is generally under a month but it varies with each person and lighter weights may take a little longer. If things are improving after two weeks but still "not quite there) then I would wait a little longer. If there is no sign of improvement at all then it may be worth experimenting with other changes past about the two week point.

[quote]Q5. It may be possible to switch the bottom layer from 36 ILD to 28 ILD. I chose 36 to ensure we won’t have alignment issues. Is it possible that 28 would be firm enough for our weight (we weigh 126 LBs and 130 LBs)? If so, again, how long should I wait before changing the base lawyer. (I believe we have about 1 month from purchase to exchange, probably with a fee.) I am hoping somehow we won’t have to exchange the base layer, partly because we won’t know if 28 may be too soft.

Q6. What is the possibility that we will have alignment issues if we switch to 28 ILD? (I would rather not take any risks on this front.) Under the toppers will be solid wood floor.[/quote]

I would experiment with removing both the protector (especially for heat issues but it could also be creating a “drum” effect and interfering with the contouring of the latex) and I would also experiment with removing the mattress cover as well to see if sleeping more directly on the latex improves the contouring of the latex.

I would try other options before experimenting with changing the base layer although lighter weights improves the odds that a softer base layer will work for you.

I would first make sure though that the underlying cause of your issues are that the mattress is too firm rather than too soft because if the back issues are from the mattress being too soft then reducing the ILD of the base layer may make it worse but if the mattress is still too firm with the layers you have and none of the other options works well then it would make sense that reducing the ILD of the base layer may help.

Your own experience along with “educated” trial and error is really the only way to know with any certainty.

Phoenix

18

Thank you Phoenix for your suggestions. I removed the mattress protector (membrane), which made my bed not as hot. I removed the mattress pad one night, but that didn’t feel too good to my skin so I am keeping the pad for now. I still have some temperature issues.

Removing the protector also improved contour issue, however I still have to have a pillow under my knees to prevent lower back pain.

Last night I experimented with an old spring mattress under the latex toppers (2 pieces of 3" thick blended Talalay mattress toppers, 19 and 36 ILDs). It felt much softer than without the mattress. I was able to sleep without the pillow under my knees. However, I noticed that my hip area went down (guessing lower than it should) overnight and I had a different lower back pain from the usual one. I concluded that setup (softer) was going the right direction but we went too far.

I will try 19 ILD + the old mattress tonight to see how it goes. (I am assuming that should be firmer than the last night’s setup. If not, please let me know.)

The old mattress is a non-reversible 6" spring mattress. It is not firm, worn out, and the hip area has shortened (sagged) spring due to usage. I could not feel the sag through 6" of latex foam last night. The old mattress was the reason we looked for a new mattress, so I am not keeping it, but I thought I should try something softer before buying a 28 ILD latex foam.

At this point I am guessing that 19 + 28 ILDs will work better than 19 + 36 ILDs, but we don’t know for sure, so I am not too sure if exchanging 28 with 36 is the best thing to do. We may just buy a 28 ILD and experiment different combinations, even though we may have to dispose of 36 ILD in the end. I thought we have the following potential combinations (from top to bottom). All latex foams are 3" thick.

A. 19 / 28

B. 19 / 28 / 36

C. 19 / 36 / 28

D. Wool mattress pad or topper / 19 / 36

Q1. Is option B supposed to be softer than C?

Option D is to buy a wool mattress pad or topper instead of buying another latex foam.

Q2. Is it possible for a wool mattress pad to be flexible (ability to contour to body)? What would be the backing fabric (material)?

I have read that a wool pile version requires constant fluffing. So I thought of a covered version, something like this, which is only 0.5" thick.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007DRIA2I/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1T94AT1657BVS&coliid=I3L4M0DGRPGQU1

There is a mattress topper version (1.5" thick) also, but I have read that wool can compress and create a body impression / become bumpy so I am afraid to buy something thick and getting an uncomfortable sleeping surface, so I thought thinner may be better.

On the other hand, I have read some reviews that some people found a wool pad to be hotter than without it. Do you need to have a minimum thickness of wool to get enough temperature regulation effect?

Also, when buying a wool pad instead of softer latex foam, the pad needs to have softening / contouring effect … so in this respect, the pad needs to be thick?

Q 3. Based on these considerations, do you have any suggestions on wool mattress pad?

Q4. Should I try the wool pad, or 28 ILD latex foam?

As always, I look forward to your kind reply.

19

Hi Martina,

The mattress introduces a completely new variable into the picture but in general terms your logic makes sense to me. The mattress would be softer than a firm surface or floor under the toppers so the mattress with the toppers would be softer than the toppers over a firm surface. Even with the thicker layers of latex on top you would still be affected by the sagging springs even if you don’t feel it initially. Alignment issues are generally what you “feel” in the morning. Having a pillow under your knees may have also improved the “different” lower back pain and a pillow under the knees is a good idea for back sleepers anyway because it can help decompress and “flatten” the spine slightly (which is a good thing when you are lying down compared to it’s normal slightly greater curvature when you are standing up).

With the two latex layers you would “feel” some of the 36 ILD layer underneath the 19 ILD layer so whether the single topper “felt” softer or firmer would depend on how the top layers of the mattress compared to the 36 ILD latex so it could “feel” either softer or firmer. Either way the sag would still have an effect.

If the layer thicknesses were the same … the 19/28 combination would be a little softer and slightly more contouring and pressure relieving than the 19/36 layer but any sag under toppers will likely still affect how you feel in the morning because the toppers will “bend” into the sag underneath it (see post #4 here). I don’t know if a softer combination would work better for you (although with your lighter weights it very well could) and only your own experience can really know this.

In theory yes.

Yes but it wouldn’t provide as much contouring support along the entire body surface as latex. It can certainly provide some pressure point relief under specific pressure points but how much it affects the contouring of the latex underneath it depends on the specifics of the wool topper (thickness, type of wool, type of topper, and how densely compressed it is) and the firmness of the latex underneath it. It may feel softer over firm latex and firmer over softer latex. The construction of different wool toppers varies with each manufacturer but many that use wool batting use cotton as the cover that surrounds the wool. Some of the wool fleece toppers use either cotton or polyester (which are generally washable) as a backing.

You can read a little more about some of the differences between a wool fleece topper / mattress pad and a mattress pad / topper that uses wool batting wrapped with cotton in post #3 here. The wool fleece will compress and “matt down” more easily because it uses vertical wool strands that are not compressed together like in a wool batting and a topper that uses wool batting will tend to be more resilient and “supportive”.

Wool is a temperature regulator and works in both directions (there are cultures that use wool in lighter versions in the desert for cooling and others that use thicker layers of wool in cold climates for warmth). Once again it would depend on the specifics of all the factors that can affect temperature and on the person themselves but in most cases even a relatively thinner mattress pad would be an effective temperature regulator (moreso if you didn’t have less breathable or synthetic sheets or a semi breathable mattress protector over it). In some cases thick layers of wool in combination with other “warming” factors may feel warmer.

This would depend on the specifics and design goal of your complete sleeping system but I would tend towards slightly thinner (around 1.5" or so or less) that would have less effect on the latex unless you preferred or wanted more of the “feel” of a wool sleeping surface vs the “feel” of the latex underneath it.

This would really depend on your “best judgement” and preferences and what type of changes you were looking to make and were most important to you. Each person may make a different choice that they were happy with but I have no way of knowing which would feel or work best for you. Both are high quality materials but there isn’t a “better worse” … only a preference that your own experience can evaluate. If I was in your shoes though I would probably buy a 28 ILD layer so you have a 3 layer sleeping system to experiment with along with the other components you have (such as the mattress pad) which would provide you with completely different and useful reference points to experiment with and then I would consider any other changes that you may wish to make. I tend to take a “1 step at a time” approach and having a 3 layer system … at least for a while … would make sense to me in terms of giving you options to test.

Phoenix

20

Thank you Phoenix for detailed response! Included links were also very informative.

I removed the sagging old spring mattress below immediately, following your response. Unfortunately I cannot get the softer latex foam soon so I am wondering if there are any other safe ways to soften our mattress somehow. Is it possible to quicken the break in period of the bottom layer? Is it even possible to break in a 36 ILD foam?

We have been sleeping on the latex toppers for 23 days now, and “too firm” feeling is not improving so I am guessing that we had enough trial period to render the judgment. So am I right in thinking that my hip goes down somewhat in the 19 ILD layer, but the bottom layer is preventing further contouring… so my hip has to go down more than 3" for my neutral position to take place? Would that be the same as when a person stands properly, only horizontal?

Pillow under the knees – is this an old age phenomenon (arthritis, herniated disk, etc.) that most people (middle age +) who sleep on the back need to do? I prefer I don’t have to have the pillow, because, again, the pillow is a cause of temperature (can get too warm) issue. The pillow is another thing to take care of … The pillow I am using is a cheap polyester fill, I think.

I originally embarked on this latex mattress purchase journey with 2 layers of 3" toppers in mind because we move frequently. Also I prefer to simplify my life as much as I can. (If 6" can do it, why carry 9" around?) I am wondering … in general, would you say you need to have 9" minimum to have a comfortable mattress, or have you heard of people successfully build a perfect latex mattress in 6" thickness?

I am enjoying the learning process. Thank you.

21

Hi Martina,

You could try walking carefully and evenly on the mattress but in general the upper layers are the ones that are most affected by the break in period … not the firmer layers deeper in the mattress.

I would think so yes.

I wouldn’t think in terms of number of inches. The goal is that your spine is in a neutral alignment and that you can sleep symptom free regardless of how many inches each part of your body ends up sinking in. This can be so individual that your experience will always be the best way to assess the mattress much more than any theory or “number of inches”.

This is one of those individual things that really can’t be generalized. Unfortunately aging affects all of us and in some cases it’s the best solution and it’s always beneficial. For some people no mattress may be enough to offset some of the physiological issues or changes that they may have developed over the years. Sometimes when we’re younger we don’t need some of the “aids” or to have “perfect alignment” but when we get older we do. This is all part of where in the range each person is in between “I can sleep on anything” and “princess and the pea”. Each person is different. Of course it would be great to be able to use just the mattress without a pillow under your knees but sometimes it’s possible and sometimes it’s not. A thicker mattress may be helpful (which you could assess when you have another layer) and zoning may also be beneficial to provide the varying levels of support that may be needed under the different areas of the body (see post #11 here) … especially in the heavier areas. Sometimes though … “educated” trial and error is the only pathway to success.

Again … there are no rules that will apply to all people. Some people do very well with only 6" of latex but others need something thicker which can be more adaptable to different body shapes and types (see post #14 here). The most common thickness is usually in the 8" to 9" range because this allows for a 6" core layer which can adapt to different body types without getting firm too quickly and a 2" or 3" comfort layer for pressure relief and comfort. The odds of success with only 6" are higher for lighter body types but everything depends on the individual and some people need a different design or more thickness for their ideal design.

If you are able to exchange one of your layers then a third layer would give you the chance to experiment a little bit before deciding which one (if any) to send back and in the worst case you could always sell any extra layers you end up with.

Phoenix

22

Hello Phoenix,

I still have a chance to exchange the 36 ILD 3" latex topper with a 28 ILD topper. So my plan is to exchange, rather than just buying a 28. I will have the layers as 19 / 28. (Currently 19 / 36.) The foam layers will be placed directly on the floor.

In case 19 / 28 is too soft, I can change to 28 / 19. (Hopefully 28 / 19 is softer than 19 / 36.)

If I kept 36, I could try 19 / 28 / 36, but that would be softer than 19 / 28. I think the possibility that 19 / 28 is still too hard is unlikely; therefore, I feel the only way the 36 can be useful would be to have 19 / 36 / 28.

My question is what is the difference between 28 / 19 vs. 19 / 36 / 28? (I am assuming they are both firmer than 19 / 28, and very similar feel.) If they are very similar I think the benefit of keeping the 36 is very low.

I am guessing 19 / 36 / 28 has the similar effect as having a spring mattress under latex foam layers, like I tried a while ago. Somehow the softer layer under 36 makes the 36 softer and more contouring than 36 alone… Am I correct?

I am trying to confirm most likely I don’t need to keep the 36. (I can always buy it again if needed.)

Thank you.

23

Hi Martina,

I read through the previous posts in the thread and they include links to most of the information that I think could help you but I’ll add a couple more here.

I see from your last reply that you are thinking about using “dominating” layers (firmer over softer) and there is a little more about this in post #2 here and post #2 here.

Related to this there are different types of firmness and softness that different people are more or less sensitive to. There is more about this in post #15 here.

Outside of this type of generic information … the combinations you are comparing are too different from each other or to what you have tried and provided feedback about to really make any meaningful comments or try to guess at how they may feel for you except to say that if a top layer is softer it will have more “pressure relieving” softness and if a bottom layer is softer it will have more “support softness” but they are also different thicknesses overall so the post I linked previously about the effect of layer thickness and the thickness of a mattress will also play a role in how each of them may feel for you.

I really don’t know how either of these will feel for you. I would tend to avoid using a 19 ILD layer as a support layer because it’s softer than a typical support layer but once again each person is unique and your actual experience may surprise me. These two combinations are so different that it’s not really possible to guess how they may feel or compare for you except to say that the first one (with two layers) has a firmer top layer than the second one so the surface feel and “pressure relief softness” would be greater. It also has has a softer support layer than the second one but this would also become firmer faster because it’s thinner. They are too different and the differences are too complex to predict how you would feel on either of them or how they may compare for you. A “standard” layering would be 19 over 28 on a two layer mattress or 19 over 28 over 36 on a three layer mattress and once you have tested either of these and described your experience or the “symptoms” you experienced on them then it would be easier to guess at how a new layering that only had one specific change may feel as part of a process that may help with any symptoms you are experiencing on either of them.

In other words, outside of more generic information, I would need a reference point of a specific combination you have tried that is closer to these combinations to be able to compare them to what you have actually tried or be able to guess how a combination that has only a smaller change or changes that are less complex compared to what you have tried may feel or compare for you.

When you are experimenting with different or unusual layering then trial and error and your own feedback on different combinations are one of the most important parts of the process.

Phoenix

24

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for helping me when I was new to latex. I am glad we switched to latex :slight_smile:

Update: My spouse and I have tried blended Talalay for the last 3 years. After an exchange shortly after the original purchase, we kept a 3" 19 ILD (soft) topper on top of a 3" 28 ILD (medium) topper, totalling 6" thickness, on a wooden box platform. We tossed the soft layer due to sag issues about 2 years after purchase. So we are now sleeping on the medium topper only, which has also developed sag, causing back pain.

Now we are looking for a firmer 2" or 3" single layer, which hopefully would not sag to the point of not enough support, resulting in back pain. We prefer it to be 100% natural rubber (NR).

We are a back sleeper and a side sleeper, each weighing about 130 lb.

We would like to know:

  1. Difference between 44 ILD NR Talalay and NR Dunlop. Is Dunlop less sagging?

  2. Could a single layer of 3" 44 ILD NR Dunlop be too hard for 99% of the population? (The side sleeper, my partner, has slept on less than an inch layer of blanket for 2 years comfortably, when much younger, of course.)

  3. What would be the difference between 2" and 3" 44 ILD NR Dunlop? We are assuming that 2" would feel harder than 3".

  4. Is there any place where we can have the existing 3" queen size topper sliced into 2 pieces (1.5" each or 1" and 2") for a fee? This may come in handy, say if we were to get a 2" 44 ILD piece, and add a thin (1" to 1.5") layer of existing 28 ILD as the comfort layer. Hopefully with the thinner layer the ill effect of the existing sag will be minimized.

Thank you.

25

Hi Martina,

Are you using the latex on top of the spring mattress that you had mentioned in your previous posts, or is it just on top of the foundation? If it is on top of the foundation, what structure does that foundation have and is it on a frame? Does the frame have a proper center support? Have you tried the foam layers directly upon the floor to see if there is a difference? When you’re mentioning a sag, describe this. Do you mean that the foam is softening in certain areas, or is there more than 1" of an actual depression?

The reason I ask all of these questions is that it is odd for latex to develop a true defective depression in such a short time, but it is more possible if your foundation has some give to it. Also, if you are using only 6" of this softer latex for your entire mattress, I would have the same concerns that I did in my previous posts about you asking these softer layers to provide enough support for alignment as well as comfort.

Both products would be very high quality materials and as I mentioned earlier it is uncommon for latex to sag. A higher ILD in latex will be more dense and have more material and should maintain more of its support factor over time. Generally speaking, when rated in ILD, the Dunlop will tend to feel a bit “firmer” than the same ILD in Talalay.

Of course, that’s a statement that no one would be able to quantify. Some people can sleep upon blankets, others need 12" or more of latex to achieve the comfort they desire. It’s completely individual.

Both would be a firmer feeling material, with the 3" offering 50% more material for you to “bend into”. How that felt to you, whether you found it more comfortable, supportive, firmer or softer, would ultimately come down to your own personal testing and sleeping posture.

I’m sorry, but I am not aware of any mattress factory, fabricator or pourer that allows consumers to bring in used foam and will slit it into thinner pieces.

Phoenix

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Thank you Phoenix for responding.

The 3" topper is sitting on a solid wooden box foundation (not a frame), which is about 3/4 inch thick, so it is very similar to placing it on the floor directly. The foam is softening under heavy parts of the bodies. When looking at the topper, the sag is not easily detectable. I cannot see more than 1" of permanent depressions.

When my husband rolled around on the topper, he could feel that the center part of the mattress is firmer than where we normally sleep on. We tried rotating the mattress 180 degrees because the softened area is asymmetrical length wise. He noticed a slight improvement at first couple of nights, but I didn’t notice any difference.

We have not tried flipping the topper, because the top side has bamboo cover, and the bottom side is a stronger paper towel type material. He thinks flipping it would not make a difference, although I understand that stiffer paper cover may slightly resist the stretching of the surface.

We know we want to go firmer than 28 ILD, and 100% NR. 2" or 3" 44 ILD NR Dunlop seems commonly available so we will search in the online store list here. Do you think that’s a good approach?

Of course 28 to 44 ILD is a big jump so checking out the feel of that range in person at a store before ordering would be ideal. We are currently in AZ, a couple of hours drive to Yuma. Actually we are going to be there tomorrow. If you are aware of a good store to check out in Yuma, please let me know.

Thank you.

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Hi Martina:

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

The softening of the topper seems normal, especially as you are using only 3" and it is doing all of the work on top of a hard platform, not allowing any layers beneath it to “share the load” and dissipate your mass. The center part feeling firmer would certainly makes sense, as that foam hasn’t been used nearly as much. I don’t know that flipping will make too much of a difference with only 3" and the use that this has already had.

Your list is a good place to start. The change from 28 ILD to 44 ILD will be noticeable, but the 44 ILD will be more appropriate and durable if using only 3", and it may more closely approximate some of the firmer surfaces you mentioned in some of your older posts. Of course, only your own personal testing will tell you for sure, so if you end up purchasing something without trying it out be sure to check into any potential return/exchange policy in case things don’t turn out as you had hoped.

All I have in Yuma is here, but these are not latex component stores:

Denver MattressÂŽ - The Easiest Way to Get the Right Mattress They are a factory direct regional manufacturer that has a wide range of mattresses but one of them is the iChoice which is a mostly Talalay latex mattress which has a separate Talalay latex topper.

mattresswarehouseofyuma.com/id4.html Yuma, AZ. They carry Stress-O-Pedic and Sherwood and neither one has an all latex mattress but they may have a latex hybrid on their floor. If you decide to go here I would call them first to see what they have on their floor and to make sure that there that any “latex” mattresses they carry have more than just a thin layer of latex mixed in with other materials.

Other than that the San Diego list would be your closest source of latex that I can see and there is a much wider range of options there.

Phoenix