Latex mattress questions

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi Phoenix, I am shopping for a queen size mattress for my husband and me. We have narrowed down to 100% natural talalay latex. We move often so we want to make the mattress as light (thin) as possible.

Here is our height and weight info:
Me: 5’ 3", 126 LBs, mainly back sleeper, but sometimes side sleeper. I am heavy from the waist down.
My spouse: 5’ 8", 130 LBs, side sleeper. Equally distributed.

We have slept on a latex mattress for about 3 weeks and this is our experience.
I found ILD 35 (all 3" thick) over ILD 40 to be too hard. I also tried ILD 32 over ILD 35, and felt I should try softer (at least the top layer.) I am guessing by choosing the softer top layer I may be able to get more support in the lumbar area. I felt either set could not give me the lumbar support, but the softer one was a bit better. In the past I felt firm mattress in general is better for my back but latex mattress seems different. My feeling towards softer top layer may be influenced by others reporting soft doesn’t mean bad with latex. I should add that in the firmer set, I had lower back pain as well as shoulder blades (pressure) pain occasionally. With the softer set, also lower back pain but less. I use a rolled up bath towel under my knee when I sleep on my back to reduce my lower back pain.
My spouse was happy with ILD 32 over ILD 35, but I am guessing that he may be happier if it was slightly softer since he is a side sleeper.
Unfortunately, the owner of the mattress suspects the ILD #s may not be accurate, but let’s assume the #s are in that range anyhow. (Just letting you know that you may not want to put too much consideration on our past experience when coming up with the best ILD #s for us.)

  1. I am considering an online retailer which offers ILD 29, 36, 20, and 32 on their web site. Do you think the following will work? (I will ask if they offer other firmness choices. They will probably provide different firmness for each side as well.)
    Top layer (3") ILD 29 for both of us
    Bottom layer (2") ILD 36 for both of us

  2. Based on our weight information, could we go less than 5" thick, or would we “bottom out” if thinner?

  3. Any online latex seller recommendations? We are in Oakland county, MI.

We are impressed with your knowledge. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :slight_smile:

2

Hi Martina,

A softer top layer is more pressure relieving but less supportive (it compresses more deeply with the same weight). It can also help with secondary support that “allows” you to sink in more deeply and helps fill in the gaps in the sleeping profile. Firmer materials are more supportive although they may not lead to better alignment which requires a combination of softer and firmer layers in the right proportion to provide the best possible alignment in all your sleeping positions. Too much “support” or firmness or not enough softness and thickness in the comfort layers under the lighter parts of the body can lead to alignment issues just as easily as too little support or firmness under the heavier parts of the body. There is a little more about the relationship between what I call primary support, secondary support, and pressure relief in post #4 here but outside of your own personal testing and experience … mattress design and theory can be a long learning curve with a lot of trial and error because only your own testing or personal experience can know with any certainty what type of layering will match your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP…

You are in a much firmer range than most people in your weight range would normally choose and I would do some careful and objective testing on different latex designs and layering combinations to see which combinations tend to be more suitable for you in terms of PPP.

I would also make sure you have read the tutorial post here which has all the basic information, steps and guidelines that can help you choose the best mattress including links to some of the pages that have more information about some of the theory and design involved in different mattress constructions although I would only use these as generic guidelines and not as a way to choose the specifics of a mattress because each person can be very different from the next … even if their body type and sleeping positions are similar (see post #2 here).

If you are taking on the “challenge” of designing and building your own mattress it may become more of a project than you are prepared for and post #15 here would be helpful to help you assess the potential risk and rewards and make sure you have realistic expectations about the challenges … and rewards … that can be involved in this approach.

[quote]1. I am considering an online retailer which offers ILD 29, 36, 20, and 32 on their web site. Do you think the following will work? (I will ask if they offer other firmness choices. They will probably provide different firmness for each side as well.)
Top layer (3") ILD 29 for both of us
Bottom layer (2") ILD 36 for both of us[/quote]

I don’t know if it will work for you but it’s certainly outside of the “normal” or “average” range for a mattress design.

It’s not likely that you would bottom out in your sleeping positions (where the layer can’t compress any more) but it may be firmer than you prefer. Don’t forget that thickness and softness work together with other mattress specs to create the feel and performance of a mattress (see post #2 here). This is not much room to “design in” different layers in only 5" and you may do better with a single layer of latex at this thickness. Your own personal testing though is the only way to know for certain,

The tutorial post includes a link to the members of this site that sell latex mattresses online in a wide range of different designs and budget ranges. There are also some sources for individual components and layers listed in post #4 here. some of the better options and possibilities I’m aware of in terms of mattress retailers and manufacturers that are within about 100 miles or so of Detroit are listed in post #2 here.

Phoenix

3

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for your detailed response. I’ve read your suggested links.

We made measurements using your instructions here. Five steps to your perfect mattress - Tips and Tricks - The Mattress Underground

I sleep on by back most of the time, and sometimes on my side (at least once per night). My lumbar space when my rear end and upper back lightly touching a wall is about 1 inch. The distance between my shoulder to armpit (on one side of the shoulder) is 3". My waist area difference is 4" in total, so when divided by 2, the distance is 2".

My husband sleeps on his side most of the time. The distance between his shoulder to armpit (on one side of the shoulder) is 3.5". His waist area difference is 2.25" in total, so when divided by 2, the distance is 1.125".

  1. What should be our comfort layer thickness? Is 3" okay?

  2. I have read less than 20 ILD will actually sag (body impression will form). Based on this understanding, I am considering to make our comfort layer ~24 ILD.

  3. If top layer is 24 ILD, how much harder could the bottom layer be. We are considering about 36 ILD. Could it be “too soft” or not enough support for anyone with our weight? (We are used to at least medium firm mattress.)

  4. I have reviewed / contacted some of the online retailers you recommended, and Brooklyn Bedding is one that seems to provide good value, partly because they include shipping and cover in price. Would you say this is one of the best deals around for 3" layer with cover? ($374 per layer for queen.) As I said earlier, we move often, so light weight is a benefit, but at least if each layer can be carried separately, carrying them would be easier.

  5. I believe you are saying that 36 ILD in 3" would feel softer than 2" because the floor underneath is much harder. We will place the mattress directly on the floor. Could the following be too hard?
    3" of 24 ILD comfort layer
    3" of 36 ILD support layer
    Would these be popular / average set up for our weight, etc.?
    (Brooklyn Bedding seems to carry only 3" toppers, but I can probably search 32 ILD @ 2" somewhere else, if you say these would be comparable. But now we feel most likely we should go with 6" total.)

  6. Brooklyn Bedding shows a certificate here. Is the certificate additional seal of approval I should seek, or is “supplied by Latex International” good enough to know the material is 100% natural Talalay latex? Does this certificate mean there is no chemical spraying done to make toppers fire retardant? (I am asthmatic.)

If 2 sellers sell Talalay from Latex International 3" x 60" x 80" toppers, would they be identical in quality? (The only thing that may be different would be some sellers glue 2 smaller pieces together while the other one may be 1 piece?)

  1. Should Talalay latex become softer in the range we are searching (after several years of use)?

  2. How can I can confirm what the ILDs are when we receive purchased material? e.g. weighing.

Thank you for your kind help. :slight_smile:

4

Hi Martina,

The specs and pages on the site about mattress layering and design are generic guidelines that can be useful as a basic starting point or to help with understanding some of the concepts behind different mattress designs but there are too many variables to use specs as a way to choose a specific mattress based on theory at a distance (see post #2 here). Only your own testing or personal experience on a mattress can tell if the mattress is “right” for you. With an online purchase your more detailed conversations can help you choose the mattress that has the best odds of success based on the “averages” of their customers and any other information about your preferences you are able to provide.

I’m not sure where you read this but durability is relative to each person and also on the type of materials in the mattress (although softness is one of the durability factors). You can read more about the factors that affect durability and the useful life of a mattress in post #4 here.

I leave value comparisons up to each member to decide for themselves because each person may have a different idea of which parts of a mattress or topper purchase are most important to them. Of course I would make sure that you are making apples to apples comparisons in terms of the thickness and type of latex (type and blend of the latex) and the other factors that may also be an important part of value to you (such as the cover, shipping, return policies, advice etc).

All Talalay Latex made by Latex International has been certified by the same OekoTex standard 100 criteria including both the blended Talalay and the 100% natural Talalay. They use the blended Talalay in their mattresses and toppers. They don’t use a spray to make latex fire retardant and they will provide you with the details of the fire retardant that is used in any of their mattresses if you ask them.

There are different grades of latex that may make a difference in overall consistency and appearance but in general if the type and blend of the latex is the same then they would be equivalent in terms of performance. The pieces that are part of different sizes can be glued together by either Latex International or by a separate fabricator but it would mostly be by LI.

This is a question that should be part of your discussions with each manufacturer because they know more about the specifics of their mattresses and the type of customers that tend to do best with each of their options “on average” than anyone else.

All foam materials including latex will become softer over time but this process is slower with latex than with other foams. The softness of latex (or any material) is also a factor in its durability and softer will tend to be less durable than firmer layers but this also depends on all the other factors that are involved in durability that are in the post I linked earlier.

You really can’t unless you have specialized equipment that tests ILD and for that you would also need a 6" layer of latex (the thickness of the layer affects the test because ILD is usually measured at 25% compresssion). If there is still a tag on the layer then it may have the ILD measurements for the original 6" core but this may not be on a layer you receive because the core that is tested is cut into thinner layers that may not include the tag.

Phoenix

5

Hi Phoenix,

I had an impression that LI makes only 100% natural Talalay, so I am glad you pointed out that Talalay from LI could be blended. Thank you.

After searching blended Talalay in this forum, I am still not sure … How much (%) natural latex is in blended Talalay? Again I am looking at BB topper, which is from LI. So a blended Talalay latex from LI would have the same % of natural latex, regardless of who you buy from? Is there a difference in quality among blended Talalay foams? (e.g. LI’s blended Talalay is better than XX’s blended Talalay.)

As far as mold, bacteria, dust mite resistance go, is it natural rubber that has this quality, therefore more natural rubber content = better? (In this respect, 100% natural Talalay is a better choice.)

While I was researching blended Talalay, I came across this Web page. Is the information accurate?

Thank you. :slight_smile:

6

Hi Martina,

[quote]I had an impression that LI makes only 100% natural Talalay, so I am glad you pointed out that Talalay from LI could be blended. Thank you.

After searching blended Talalay in this forum, I am still not sure … How much (%) natural latex is in blended Talalay? Again I am looking at BB topper, which is from LI. So a blended Talalay latex from LI would have the same % of natural latex, regardless of who you buy from? Is there a difference in quality among blended Talalay foams? (e.g. LI’s blended Talalay is better than XX’s blended Talalay.)[/quote]

The large majority of Talalay latex used in mattresses (probably more than 90%) is blended rather than 100% natural. You can read a little more about the difference between them in post #2 here. The blend uses approximately 30% natural rubber (NR) and 70% synthetic rubber (SBR).

You can read more about this in post #2 here. I don’t think there would be much difference between them although I would give the edge to natural rubber because it has some anti fungal properties which can affect the dust mite population along with mold and mildew. I have often seen the claim that natural latex is naturally antibacterial but I haven’t seen any specific evidence of this outside of the addition of nanosized particles of Zinc Oxide used as a gelling agent for the latex or the addition of other additives such as silver nanoparticles to the latex. some types of bacteria can spoil the raw latex material when it comes from the tree so they generally add a few drops of ammonia to the latex when it is collected to prevent putrefaction of the raw material.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: ://141.213.232.243/bitstream/handle/2027.42/47477/425_2004_Article_BF00197797.pdf;jsessionid=661D54478D1B502298805ED55D9BF3F5?sequence=1

[quote]While I was researching blended Talalay, I came across this Web page. Is the information accurate?
https://www.sleepez.com/blogs/latex-mattress-buyers-guide[/quote]

Yes

Phoenix

7

Hi all, I would appreciate your input regarding latex toppers.

Thanks to Phoenix and this forum, I now understand that 100% natural Talalay is rare and expensive, but I currently still prefer the 100% natural version.

So I am looking for queen size, Talalay latex toppers. I will buy 2 layers together to use them as a mattress.

3" thick, around 24 ILD, as the comfort layer
3" thick, around 36 ILD, as the support layer

  1. 100% natural Talalay: Would you please let me know who have them in the most reasonable price range? I prefer a company that includes cover and shipping in their price (or the additional costs to be reasonable). I am mainly looking for online retailers, including amazon.

  2. Blended Talalay: Any retailer suggestions if I have to go with the blended version? So far I found this at $374 (including shipping and cover) per layer.

  3. Please let me know your experience with blended or natural Talalay, or point me to threads. (I have done some searches on this forum already, but I may have missed some.) I have asthma, and dust mite & mold allergies.

Thank you in advance. :slight_smile:

8

Hi Phoenix,

I chatted with someone at BB and he told me that their LI talatech blend is 40% natural, and he said he was positive and that info is on LI web site. Somewhere on this forum you said talatech is 30% natural. I couldn’t find the info on LI web site. What is the correct info?

The salesperson also told me that their queen size topper is 60 X 80 and not glued/laminated. Is it possible? (I’ve read that individual mold size is approximately 6" x 80" x 39" here. https://www.sleepez.com/blogs/latex-mattress-buyers-guide) I may prefer non-glued 2 pieces instead. However, their topper covers are not removable so separate pieces may not be a good idea (in case pieces shifts in the cover it may be difficult to readjust).

I gave the weight etc info to the sales person, then asked him what he thinks about 24 ILD top 36 ILD bottom layers. He said, “that would feel very firm and the big change from ILD would not offer the best feel”. Then proceeded to came up with “36/28 is what I would recommend or 32/24”. Is there any truth to this assessment? (i.e. 24 to 36 is too big of a jump, and therefore, I would feel mattress to be too hard.) when I asked again which combination he recommends he said 32/24, and the reason was “based off the overall weight I believe this would provide sufficient support and also allow the best overall comfort”. I know you are a big proponent of actually trying out products at a store in person, which really makes sense of course … but if I don’t have the choice to try at a store … so I am seeking general guidance. I would like to trust the salesperson but at the same time if he is wrong about some of the info I asked above, it is natural to be skeptical.

Also about the bamboo non-removable cover – is it considered average quality material in terms of among other cover choices (bamboo covers in general, since I never had an experience)? Breathability and durability is important to me. I have touched it at a store and it does feel nice. The salesperson at the store said it is not washable though. I plan to put 2 covered layers into a larger cover, which I will wash occasionally.

Your input would be appreciated. :wink:

9

Hi Martina,

Post #8 here has some topper guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice for a top layer in term of thickness and softness using your experience on the base mattress or layer along with your body type and sleeping positions and also includes a link to a list of some of the better online sources for all the different types of latex I’m aware of.

You can read more about the different types of latex in post #6 here and about blended vs 100% natural Talalay in post #2 here.

There is more information about dust mites and allergies in post #2 here.

Phoenix

10

Hi Phoenix,
Please see post # 8 when you get a chance. Thank you. :slight_smile:

11

Martina,

The actual blend varies depending on the specifics of the core but “about” 30 / 70 would be closer in most cases than “about” 40 / 60 although the difference is really insignificant because they formulate the latex blend for consistency of firmness and feel and variations in raw materials can mean that a slight difference in compounding may be necessary.

Latex International has both a queen size mold and twin XL molds. The unglued queen layers are less common (and can be more costly) but either way you don’t feel any glue seams anyway.

There would be some truth to this for some people yes. For others it may not matter and some may even prefer the more solid “feel” of feeling a layer that was much firmer under the comfort layer. A smaller differential between layers would probably be a “safer” choice on average … especially for those who were sensitive to a change in firmness from one layer to another in some types of mattress constructions (it would also depend on he thickness of the comfort layer and on the specifics of the mattress cover and quilting). Everything in mattress design and theory is based on averages and “fitting” a mattress to different people and each person has a different body type, weight distribution, sleeping positions, sensitivity, health issues, physiology, and preferences and what works perfectly for one may not work nearly as well for another.

Bamboo is very breathable and wicks moisture very well and has a very “soft” hand feel. There is more general information about bamboo fabrics and other viscose types of fabrics and how they compare to other fabrics (like cotton) in post #7 here and the links it includes.

Phoenix

12

Now I am leaning towards 24/32 ILDs… In any case, I am seeking input from those who researched / purchased latex toppers. Thank you.

13

Hi Phoenix, thanks to you, participants, and this forum, I am enjoying learning about mattress buying process.

Further questions:

Reminder: I am going to buy 2 layers of 3" blended talalay latex toppers to create a DIY mattress.

  1. Talatech Latex from Latex International – If a store sells a 19 ILD topper, is it exactly 19 ILD, or they don’t really know exact #, but know to a certain degree, say between 18 to 20 ILD, for example. In other words, does LI measures and labels EVERY 6" foam with a specific ILD #?

  2. So assuming 19 ILD foam is really 19, how long would it last on average with a normal sleeping usage? How long would it take for a body impression to form, say for a person that weighs 130 LB? I am potentially buying a 19 ILD foam, and concerned about its durability.

  3. I am also concerned about the supportability of 19 ILD (3" high). The support layer would be 36 ILD (3" high). Based on our measurements (5’ 3", 126 LBs and 5’ 8", 130 LBs), do I need to be concerned about alignment issues because the comfort layer being too soft?

  4. We have an option of getting 28 / 36 ILDs instead of 19 / 36 ILDs. (I am ruling out 19 / 28 because we definitely want to avoid alignment issues.) In my past experience of approx. 32 (talalay) / approx. 35 (dunlop), I felt the top layer needs to be softer to a) relieve pressure issues and b) get a better lumbar support. I don’t know how much of the difference we would feel between 28 / 36 and 32 / 35, because if you average those 2 numbers they are very close. I thought about averaging to try to get the overall feeling, although I don’t know if this is an indication of anything.
    (28 + 36) / 2 = 32
    (32 + 35) / 2 = 33.5
    (19 + 36) / 2 = 27.5

Do you think I would notice the difference between 28 / 36 and 32 / 35?

  1. Do you have any other pros & cons comments regarding 28 / 36 vs. 19 / 36?

By the way, you said earlier,

I like the sound of “the more solid “feel” of feeling a layer that was much firmer under the comfort layer”, but, obviously to a certain degree, and I am not sure 19 / 36 is going too far … :slight_smile: There is also a possibility of getting 1 topper (36) from one company, and get another one (say, 24 ILD) from another store, which will make the buying process more complicated.

Thank you. :slight_smile:

14

Just to add my experience… I bought an Aloe Alexis (July 23rd delivery, 2013) from Brooklyn Bedding 36/32 ILD and loved it but it was a little too firm even for a 6’ man who weighs 215 lbs. I changed the 32 layer to 28 and have kept it this way. I still find it firm but not to the point of being painful.
Good luck with your decision and I hope you wind up as happy as I did.
Jeff

15

Hi Martina,

When you are looking at building your own DIY mattress I would make sure you have read post #15 here and post #2 here and post #5 here and post #7 here so that you have realistic expectations about the time and testing and trial and error it can take and the learning curve involved to end up with the design that is the best match for you.

ILD is never exact although it is closer with blended Talalay than with other types of latex. Latex International blended Talalay measures the ILD in nine places on the core (Radium uses 15) and then they average out the ILD’s and “rate” the mattress as the rating that is closest to the average ratings they measured. The individual measurements can have a variance in the range of +/- 2 ILD (below detection).

There is no way to answer this with a specific number of years because there are too many variables and durability is relative to each person. There is more about the factors that can affect the useful life of a mattress in post #4 here and the posts it links to. The one thing that you can safely say is that latex is the most durable of all the foam types.

There is no formula that can predict this and a DIY project may also involve some testing that you can use as reference points and some trial and error. ILD is only one of many factors that are part of building a mattress that “matches” your specific needs and preferences (see post #2 here).

That depends on how sensitive you are and only your own experience can tell whether you would notice a difference. Because you are looking at middle and bottom layers and your weight is light the difference would probably be small but some would feel it and some wouldn’t (more the difference between 28 and 32 than the 1 ILD difference between the bottom layer which is generally below detection and the deeper layers are the ones you “feel” the least). Once again there is no way to predict this for any individual person. I should also mention that “averaging” ILD’s isn’t really an effective way to decide on layering because it doesn’t take the compression modulus of different layer thicknesses into account and the number of inches you are averaging (which isn’t necessarily the actual thickness of any layers) can also make a difference (depending on how far different parts of your body sink into the mattress).

With only 6" of latex I would think that 28 / 36 would be much firmer than most people of your weight would be comfortable with but it would also depend on your body type and sleeping positions.

Phoenix

16

Season’s greetings everyone!

Hello Phoenix,

I recently bought 2 pieces of 3" thick blended Talalay mattress toppers, 19 and 36 ILDs. We slept on it for about a week. The toppers are covered with bamboo material on the top (the bottom material feels like a thick paper towel).

I happen to have a mattress protector for up to 7"-high mattress, so I put those 2 toppers in them to keep them together and clean. The protector’s label says “Rest-Guard: sleep surface 100% cotton (laminate: 100% polyurethane)”.

On top of that, I have an average mattress cover (the surface is 100% cotton but the rest of the quilted material is synthetic).

My sleeping experience so far is:

• I often wake up feeling hotter than traditional spring mattress. Is the hot feeling coming from the polyurethane laminate? If the laminate does not make much difference, I would rather keep the protector.

Q1. Should I remove the protector?

Q2. Should I keep the protector, but look for a wool mattress cover to reduce the hot feeling (i.e., replacing the mattress cover with the existing one)?

• Compared with our firmer latex experience before, the mattress is softer. We both feel we went the right direction. I still don’t think the top layer (19 ILD) is contouring to my body enough because I still get lower back pain. I am guessing this is due to the fact that my hip does not sink into the foam deep enough, so that the lumbar area does not have enough support. So when I put a pillow under the knees or standing the knees make me feel better. I had to do this in the past, and my hope was once I have a proper latex foam I don’t have to rely on pillows under my knees.

When I try to train my back without the pillows under the knees, I get lower back pain, so I tend to sleep on my side more often than before. Then I have to place a pillow between the knees, as well as get the higher pillow for side sleeping purposes. (When I sleep on my back, I only have a small towel under my neck, so my head is not lifted at all, touching the sheet.) So I have to change positions several times during the night, which means waking up multiple times.

Q3. Does the 19 ILD topper take time to break in to be softer? How long should I wait before making the judgment?

Q4. Should I try removing the mattress protector for this reason as well, before making the judgment whether 19 + 36 ILDs are the right choice?

Q5. It may be possible to switch the bottom layer from 36 ILD to 28 ILD. I chose 36 to ensure we won’t have alignment issues. Is it possible that 28 would be firm enough for our weight (we weigh 126 LBs and 130 LBs)? If so, again, how long should I wait before changing the base lawyer. (I believe we have about 1 month from purchase to exchange, probably with a fee.) I am hoping somehow we won’t have to exchange the base layer, partly because we won’t know if 28 may be too soft.

Q6. What is the possibility that we will have alignment issues if we switch to 28 ILD? (I would rather not take any risks on this front.) Under the toppers will be solid wood floor.

Thank you.

17

Hi Martina,

This sounds like it is a mattress encasement/protector which has a semi breathable waterproof membrane. They can can reduce airflow and increase sleeping temperature.

Is this an actual mattress cover (that surrounds the layers inside) or a mattress pad? If it has a synthetic fill material such as polyester fibers then this can also contribute to heat issues. Depending on the fill material or batting as well it can also reduce the ability of the latex to contour to your body profile.

Assuming that both of these are surrounding the latex layers the first thing I would check is the effect of removing the protector with the membrane as this is the most likely “culprit” or at least the layer which is having the most effect on temperature. Synthetic sheets can also make a difference. You can see some of the factors that together can affect sleeping temperature in post #2 here but many people have found that removing a membrane type of protector can reduce sleeping temperatures to within “acceptable” limits.

Replacing the mattress cover with a cooler type of cover (such as a wool quilted cover) or adding a wool mattress pad would probably also help but I wouldn’t replace the cover until you have first made sure that other less costly changes don’t work well enough.

All materials will soften slightly at the beginning and there can also be some adjustment period as well. This is generally under a month but it varies with each person and lighter weights may take a little longer. If things are improving after two weeks but still "not quite there) then I would wait a little longer. If there is no sign of improvement at all then it may be worth experimenting with other changes past about the two week point.

[quote]Q5. It may be possible to switch the bottom layer from 36 ILD to 28 ILD. I chose 36 to ensure we won’t have alignment issues. Is it possible that 28 would be firm enough for our weight (we weigh 126 LBs and 130 LBs)? If so, again, how long should I wait before changing the base lawyer. (I believe we have about 1 month from purchase to exchange, probably with a fee.) I am hoping somehow we won’t have to exchange the base layer, partly because we won’t know if 28 may be too soft.

Q6. What is the possibility that we will have alignment issues if we switch to 28 ILD? (I would rather not take any risks on this front.) Under the toppers will be solid wood floor.[/quote]

I would experiment with removing both the protector (especially for heat issues but it could also be creating a “drum” effect and interfering with the contouring of the latex) and I would also experiment with removing the mattress cover as well to see if sleeping more directly on the latex improves the contouring of the latex.

I would try other options before experimenting with changing the base layer although lighter weights improves the odds that a softer base layer will work for you.

I would first make sure though that the underlying cause of your issues are that the mattress is too firm rather than too soft because if the back issues are from the mattress being too soft then reducing the ILD of the base layer may make it worse but if the mattress is still too firm with the layers you have and none of the other options works well then it would make sense that reducing the ILD of the base layer may help.

Your own experience along with “educated” trial and error is really the only way to know with any certainty.

Phoenix

18

Thank you Phoenix for your suggestions. I removed the mattress protector (membrane), which made my bed not as hot. I removed the mattress pad one night, but that didn’t feel too good to my skin so I am keeping the pad for now. I still have some temperature issues.

Removing the protector also improved contour issue, however I still have to have a pillow under my knees to prevent lower back pain.

Last night I experimented with an old spring mattress under the latex toppers (2 pieces of 3" thick blended Talalay mattress toppers, 19 and 36 ILDs). It felt much softer than without the mattress. I was able to sleep without the pillow under my knees. However, I noticed that my hip area went down (guessing lower than it should) overnight and I had a different lower back pain from the usual one. I concluded that setup (softer) was going the right direction but we went too far.

I will try 19 ILD + the old mattress tonight to see how it goes. (I am assuming that should be firmer than the last night’s setup. If not, please let me know.)

The old mattress is a non-reversible 6" spring mattress. It is not firm, worn out, and the hip area has shortened (sagged) spring due to usage. I could not feel the sag through 6" of latex foam last night. The old mattress was the reason we looked for a new mattress, so I am not keeping it, but I thought I should try something softer before buying a 28 ILD latex foam.

At this point I am guessing that 19 + 28 ILDs will work better than 19 + 36 ILDs, but we don’t know for sure, so I am not too sure if exchanging 28 with 36 is the best thing to do. We may just buy a 28 ILD and experiment different combinations, even though we may have to dispose of 36 ILD in the end. I thought we have the following potential combinations (from top to bottom). All latex foams are 3" thick.

A. 19 / 28

B. 19 / 28 / 36

C. 19 / 36 / 28

D. Wool mattress pad or topper / 19 / 36

Q1. Is option B supposed to be softer than C?

Option D is to buy a wool mattress pad or topper instead of buying another latex foam.

Q2. Is it possible for a wool mattress pad to be flexible (ability to contour to body)? What would be the backing fabric (material)?

I have read that a wool pile version requires constant fluffing. So I thought of a covered version, something like this, which is only 0.5" thick.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007DRIA2I/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1T94AT1657BVS&coliid=I3L4M0DGRPGQU1

There is a mattress topper version (1.5" thick) also, but I have read that wool can compress and create a body impression / become bumpy so I am afraid to buy something thick and getting an uncomfortable sleeping surface, so I thought thinner may be better.

On the other hand, I have read some reviews that some people found a wool pad to be hotter than without it. Do you need to have a minimum thickness of wool to get enough temperature regulation effect?

Also, when buying a wool pad instead of softer latex foam, the pad needs to have softening / contouring effect … so in this respect, the pad needs to be thick?

Q 3. Based on these considerations, do you have any suggestions on wool mattress pad?

Q4. Should I try the wool pad, or 28 ILD latex foam?

As always, I look forward to your kind reply.

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Hi Martina,

The mattress introduces a completely new variable into the picture but in general terms your logic makes sense to me. The mattress would be softer than a firm surface or floor under the toppers so the mattress with the toppers would be softer than the toppers over a firm surface. Even with the thicker layers of latex on top you would still be affected by the sagging springs even if you don’t feel it initially. Alignment issues are generally what you “feel” in the morning. Having a pillow under your knees may have also improved the “different” lower back pain and a pillow under the knees is a good idea for back sleepers anyway because it can help decompress and “flatten” the spine slightly (which is a good thing when you are lying down compared to it’s normal slightly greater curvature when you are standing up).

With the two latex layers you would “feel” some of the 36 ILD layer underneath the 19 ILD layer so whether the single topper “felt” softer or firmer would depend on how the top layers of the mattress compared to the 36 ILD latex so it could “feel” either softer or firmer. Either way the sag would still have an effect.

If the layer thicknesses were the same … the 19/28 combination would be a little softer and slightly more contouring and pressure relieving than the 19/36 layer but any sag under toppers will likely still affect how you feel in the morning because the toppers will “bend” into the sag underneath it (see post #4 here). I don’t know if a softer combination would work better for you (although with your lighter weights it very well could) and only your own experience can really know this.

In theory yes.

Yes but it wouldn’t provide as much contouring support along the entire body surface as latex. It can certainly provide some pressure point relief under specific pressure points but how much it affects the contouring of the latex underneath it depends on the specifics of the wool topper (thickness, type of wool, type of topper, and how densely compressed it is) and the firmness of the latex underneath it. It may feel softer over firm latex and firmer over softer latex. The construction of different wool toppers varies with each manufacturer but many that use wool batting use cotton as the cover that surrounds the wool. Some of the wool fleece toppers use either cotton or polyester (which are generally washable) as a backing.

You can read a little more about some of the differences between a wool fleece topper / mattress pad and a mattress pad / topper that uses wool batting wrapped with cotton in post #3 here. The wool fleece will compress and “matt down” more easily because it uses vertical wool strands that are not compressed together like in a wool batting and a topper that uses wool batting will tend to be more resilient and “supportive”.

Wool is a temperature regulator and works in both directions (there are cultures that use wool in lighter versions in the desert for cooling and others that use thicker layers of wool in cold climates for warmth). Once again it would depend on the specifics of all the factors that can affect temperature and on the person themselves but in most cases even a relatively thinner mattress pad would be an effective temperature regulator (moreso if you didn’t have less breathable or synthetic sheets or a semi breathable mattress protector over it). In some cases thick layers of wool in combination with other “warming” factors may feel warmer.

This would depend on the specifics and design goal of your complete sleeping system but I would tend towards slightly thinner (around 1.5" or so or less) that would have less effect on the latex unless you preferred or wanted more of the “feel” of a wool sleeping surface vs the “feel” of the latex underneath it.

This would really depend on your “best judgement” and preferences and what type of changes you were looking to make and were most important to you. Each person may make a different choice that they were happy with but I have no way of knowing which would feel or work best for you. Both are high quality materials but there isn’t a “better worse” … only a preference that your own experience can evaluate. If I was in your shoes though I would probably buy a 28 ILD layer so you have a 3 layer sleeping system to experiment with along with the other components you have (such as the mattress pad) which would provide you with completely different and useful reference points to experiment with and then I would consider any other changes that you may wish to make. I tend to take a “1 step at a time” approach and having a 3 layer system … at least for a while … would make sense to me in terms of giving you options to test.

Phoenix

20

Thank you Phoenix for detailed response! Included links were also very informative.

I removed the sagging old spring mattress below immediately, following your response. Unfortunately I cannot get the softer latex foam soon so I am wondering if there are any other safe ways to soften our mattress somehow. Is it possible to quicken the break in period of the bottom layer? Is it even possible to break in a 36 ILD foam?

We have been sleeping on the latex toppers for 23 days now, and “too firm” feeling is not improving so I am guessing that we had enough trial period to render the judgment. So am I right in thinking that my hip goes down somewhat in the 19 ILD layer, but the bottom layer is preventing further contouring… so my hip has to go down more than 3" for my neutral position to take place? Would that be the same as when a person stands properly, only horizontal?

Pillow under the knees – is this an old age phenomenon (arthritis, herniated disk, etc.) that most people (middle age +) who sleep on the back need to do? I prefer I don’t have to have the pillow, because, again, the pillow is a cause of temperature (can get too warm) issue. The pillow is another thing to take care of … The pillow I am using is a cheap polyester fill, I think.

I originally embarked on this latex mattress purchase journey with 2 layers of 3" toppers in mind because we move frequently. Also I prefer to simplify my life as much as I can. (If 6" can do it, why carry 9" around?) I am wondering … in general, would you say you need to have 9" minimum to have a comfortable mattress, or have you heard of people successfully build a perfect latex mattress in 6" thickness?

I am enjoying the learning process. Thank you.