Latex Mattress

Hi Glenn,

For some a 3 zone mattress can make as small difference but the the typical zoning which is used for latex has ILD differences that are less than the normal ILD differences in a unizone. It can make a small incremental difference but not a major one (although in more difficult circumstances each little bit can help). In an innerspring ā€¦ the middle zone is more noticeably firmer that a zoned latex core so the zoning is usually more meaningful. I would put more faith in your mattress testing than in whether it was zoned or not. If you get the pressure relief you need and you are in alignment in all your sleeping positions ā€¦ and the mattress is using good quality materials that will keep these properties over time ā€¦ then whether it is zoned or not is much less of an issue.

There is probably more misinformation ā€œout thereā€ about what type of latex is ā€œbestā€ than any other issue concerning latex. IMO, Dunlop latex is best if it is 100% NR (natural) as it is a denser material than Talalay and the natural is more elastic and durable because of its elasticity and density. Talalay on the other hand has a different cell structure and is a less dense material so with this method of production ā€¦ especially with the softer ILDā€™s that are used in comfort layers ā€¦ the blended Talalay is more durable than the 100% natural.

Some people still prefer the natural though because it is slightly more elastic and has a slightly different feel (most people wouldnā€™t even notice this) but mostly because they want something more ā€œpureā€ in an effort to be more ā€œgreenā€ even if it is not as durable. This is the reason that Latex International (who makes talalay latex) has a shorter warranty on their natural Talalay than on the blended Talalay because their own testing has confirmed its lower durability ā€¦ although both are superior to the polyfoam that is usually found in the upper layers of a mattress. The natural is also more expensive than the blended version because SBR (synthetic latex) costs less than NR (natural latex) and SBR is easier to work with and can also more easily be made in lower ILDs. The durability of any material can also be affected by certain construction methods (such as a 2 sided mattress or tufting) and designs and by what is above and below the material as well.

Phoenix

I apologize for having to ask this again, but am I understanding your section on layers to be saying that it is harder to get it right with 3? We are really struggling between a 2-layer mattress that is about $400 less than a 3-layer mattress.

Thank you, Glenn

Hi Glenn,

3 layers isnā€™t any better or worse that 2 layers ā€¦ it is just a different construction and provides options that may or may not be important to some. What I have sometimes found is that when people try to get too complicated in their analysis (which usually is accompanied by a feeling of frustration) ā€¦ then its time to trust your best judgement and the judgement of the people you are considering buying the mattress from.

I have seen some people who begin to make layer exchanges when their mattress is somehow not ā€œperfectā€ (even when it is better than what they otherwise would have purchased) and because they donā€™t fully understand the effect of layer thickness or how one layer affects the other or even which layer the ā€œtoo softā€ or ā€œtoo firmā€ they are feeling is coming from ā€¦ they ā€œblameā€ the wrong layer and start making adjustments that sometimes never seems to end. This is the reason for the comments you read ā€¦ not because any particular construction is ā€œbetterā€ or ā€œworseā€.

Itā€™s important to understand too that while a DIY mattress is more customized than what you will find in a typical outlet (outside of local manufacturing), they are not a ā€œcustom buildā€ in the sense that you are fully designing your mattress by choosing layer thicknesses or using the full range of ILDā€™s or other options that are available. They are designed to give people access to much greater value and customization than a store but are put together based on ā€œaveragesā€ that are far superior to what most people will usually buy. All of the manufacturers on this site deal with many people every day and are very good at getting close to what people need and want no matter what type of construction they may specialize in.

The only way to ā€œspec outā€ the exact construction that is ā€œperfectā€ for an individual without actually working in person with a manufacturer is to spend a great deal of time lying on mattresses with known constructions and then analyzing every one of them to find out how each feels different and why. This is way beyond what most people would ever have the time or willingness to do (although some including me actually enjoy the challenge of this). The next best thing after this is to test a few mattresses to get a general idea of what latex feels like in its different ILDā€™s and types (Dunlop or Talalay) and then use the experience of the manufacturers combined with your testing and ā€œstatsā€ to make the best possible choices. Your experiences combined with the advice of the manufacturer will almost always be far better than what you would have otherwise chosen.

So my best advice is that if the people you are talking with have heard your mattress testing experiences and know your height weight and sleeping positions ā€¦ then what they suggest will almost always be close within the limitations of the mattress you are considering ā€¦ regardless of the specific differences between mattress constructions. When you have heard what they had to say and the recommendations they made ā€¦ then its time to trust your judgement knowing that it would be difficult to make a poor choice compared to what most people would be ā€œhappy withā€ without any customization at all.

When you have narrowed down your options with some testing and research ā€¦ then your best judgement and putting together what makes up value for you individually is the best way to go. In the end, there is no ā€œbestā€ but only ā€œbest for youā€ and your choices are between good and good rather than good and bad.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix: One of your recommended vendors (mattress.net) recommends just using a metal bed frame without a box spring with the latex mattress; does this make sense?

Thank you, Glenn

Hi Glenn,

If you are asking about a metal bed frame like this ā€¦ it wouldnā€™t even be possible because the mattress would fall right through and I would suspect that there is some misunderstanding happening here. Perhaps he meant a metal bed frame like this?

Phoenix

Yesā€¦the second one. And will that give the mattress enough support?

Thank you, Glenn

Hi Glenn,

I have always been a little hesitant with a latex mattress on top of ā€œmetal wireā€ and my personal opinion was/is that more surface area (such as wooden slats) is a better surface. Having said that ā€¦ there are some constructions of wire foundations that do distribute the weight well enough that they work very well, can hold a lot of weight, and the feedback I have had about them from various manufacturers is good. Some of the lower cost wooden foundations occasionally have wood that is weak (thus some of the poor feedback in some places) and the more expensive ones that are built like a ā€œtankā€ are several hundred more so there are always tradeoffs between different choices.

Part of the confusion in my first reply as well is that I ā€œtranslateā€ frame into something that supports a foundation/base rather than something that supports a mattress.

In the end, I would trust the word of a reputable manufacturer (like mattresses.net) who have been selling these frames for about a year and have had no issues with them to date. They will have the feedback with their particular mattress and would have little interest in suggesting ā€œbudgetā€ alternatives which caused problems with the mattresses they sell. Through their experiences, my own opinions also shift as they deal with any issues more than I do.

So while I would still personally choose a high quality slatted wooden base or a high quality tension adjustable base, in a situation where a good quality budget choice is needed ā€¦ this would seem to be a good option.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix: Do you have an example of the bases you would choose from? Is a foundation still necessary? Are there any vendors that we could get a good frame and foundation from locally?

Thank you, Glenn

Hi Glenn,

A latex mattress needs just a solid base with enough supportive surface to make sure that it doesnā€™t sink through any gaps and that the base is strong enough and supported on the floor well enough to take the weight of the latex mattress and the people that sleep on it. Normally this means that a slatted wood or metal base (what you were calling a frame and I call a foundation) is the best. Both of these are rigid non flexing bases.

You can also use a more expensive tension adjustable slatted base like this, or this which typically uses thinner hardwood bowed slats and allows for the tension of the base in certain areas to be adjusted. This can fine tune the alignment on the mattress and ā€œfirm upā€ the support under the hips or allow the shoulders to sink down more. These work best with mattresses that are thin enough for the adjustments to be effective on the surface of the mattress.

You can also put the mattress directly on a slatted platform bed such as this as long as the slats are spaced close enough together and that the bed is supported in the middle so it doesnā€™t sag. Putting the mattress directly on a bed means that a base or foundation isnā€™t necessary.

There are also position adjustable bases like these which allow you to raise and lower the head and feet or turn on a vibrating massage and sometimes have all kinds of bells and whistles. These are also suitable for a latex or any ā€œbendableā€ mattress as long as the weight limits of the motor are not exceeded.

Of course there are also combinations of slatted bases which are both tension adjustable and position adjustable like the legras here or the various Axel Bloom models. Ikea also makes a variety of different budget foundations including slatted bases and tension and position adjustable bases but there are mixed reviews about their durability and quality (NOTE: their adjustable foundations are no longer available).

So regardless of what you call it ā€¦ a latex mattress needs a strong and evenly supportive base with strong slats that are no more than 3" apart (preferably closer to 2") or a metal base (that you and others were calling a frame) that has enough support surface area to prevent the latex from sinking through any gaps.

Most bases (what I call a foundation) come in various height options which allow the surface of the mattress to be at a certain height. They in turn can also go on a metal or wooden bedframe. Some have attachable legs of various heights to raise them off the floor. Regardless of all of this ā€¦ the mattress needs to sit on a firm base which will not sag over time (more than itā€™s designed to) under the weight of the mattress and the people on it.

With wood foundations ā€¦ the more wood that is used and the higher quality of the wood and construction that is used ā€¦ the more expensive they are. For example a very high quality wood foundation with wool or cotton padding on top like this, ā€¦ or this, ā€¦ or these, ā€¦ or this, is more expensive than some of the ones that you put together yourself and that use less wood or thinner wood.

Some wire grid metal platform bedframes can also work well as the metal is very strong and as long as the surface area is enough and the wires are close enough together to ensure that the mattress doesnā€™t sag through or damage the latex ā€¦ then they would probably also be fine although they may be a little more risky for an all latex mattress in the longer term (see post #10 here). There is a variety of different designs and some use more or less steel of different gauges so here too quality usually determines price. In many cases, steel foundations made by leggett and platt or hickory springs are placed on wooden bases and then the quality of the bases that the metal assembly is attached to is also important. Versions like the Zinus metal foundation (or the many variations that are similar) are also a less expensive option that seem to work well even though the wires are thinner.

All in all there are too many base options for me to keep track of so I prefer to help people with ideas about what to look for and in most cases I would just follow the recommendations of the manufacturer who is selling the mattress as they will know which bases work best with their mattresses.

Many local outlets will sell you a foundation (just make sure it is suitable) and a few phone calls to find out at local manufacturers or mattress outlets in your area may well be worth while as long as you can verify that the foundation is suitable for your mattress. If they donā€™t and the outlet where you are buying your mattress doesnā€™t have foundations that you believe are a reasonable cost ā€¦ then an online purchase makes sense to me.

Hopefully this will help sort out the foundation, base, frame, bed, platform, options for foam mattresses :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

We went to the Savvy Rest dealer today and tried several different combinations. These were not blends as oursā€™ currently is.

Dunlop Soft: 22-30
Med: 31-39
Firm: 40+
Talalay Soft: 22-24 (this was all they had with Talalay)
All layers were 3".

Our favorite was 3 layers of Dunlop with the 3" soft talalay on top. But you had recommended very soft at 15-19 which they did not have unfortunately.

Wifeā€™s side: Med-Soft-Soft
My Side: Firm-Firm-Med
3" talalay on top

We did also like the following (less cost due to 3 layers only):

Wifeā€™s Side: Med-Soft-Soft
My Side: Firm-Med-Soft

Given these results, would it make sense to add the ā€œRejuveniteā€ topper to what we have (an additional cost obvioulsy) or to start fresh with new layers? Of course, we currently have all talalay layers while these were dunlop, with the exception of the one soft (22-24 ILD) talalay layer.

Thank you, Glenn

Hi Glenn,

I answered this in the other thread and it might be easier to keep it all together there. I can get confused easily if I jump from thread to thread :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Hello again Phoenix,

On my on going quest for the right bed for me and my fiance i took your advice and went down to akron, oh yesterday to the natural bed co. which carries savvy rest products. I liked the idea behind choosing your layers and putting them into a zip cover because your sleep preferences can change or layers can break down and instead of buying a whole new mattress you just replace the layer. The prices were a little high and i am unable to afford the bed i want form them because they do not take discover card. Also i have read some reviews about savvy rest beds having sagging issues and what not. I came to the conclusion that the split build your own layering latex is right for us because i have back issues and need a firmer feel while her back is fine and prefers a softer feel.
I was curious about the sleepez compared to the savvy rest. The sleepez prices seem to be a bit lower and have a return policy where as the natural bed co. only has a comfort guarantee. Also I like the Dunlop process in the support layers and the talalay process in the comfort layers but i dont see having the combo on the sleepez site and is there a difference in the quallity or latex both these companies use?

Hi Immortal216,

Iā€™m not so sure I would call the difference a ā€œbitā€ (there is a significant difference) but you are correct which is why I have often mentioned that Savvy rest is high quality and great for testing layering combinations but not so great value.

Savvy Rest offers 100% natural Talalay from Latex International and 100% natural Dunlop from CoCo latex and the layers can be mixed and matched.

SleepEz offers blended Talalay and 100% natural Talalay from both Latex International and Radium. Their Dunlop is also 100% natural from Latex Green (which is equivalent to CoCo latex IMO) and you can mix and match these as well in any of the layers. In other words their selection of materials is much greater than Savvy Rest.

The regular wool quilted zip cover on both would be equivalent quality although SleepEz offers options (such as a non quilted ticking) that Savvy rest doesnā€™t.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

It helps greatly i plan on ordering my bed from sleepez as soon as the bed frame comes in a few weeks the information you give continues to astonish me and it was by pure chance that i found this site i believe if everyone who was shopping for a bed found this site the ā€œbiggerā€ manufactures would be force to produce higher quality beds for cheaper prices and stop telling stories.

Hi immortal216,

Now that would be a good thing!

Thanks for the kind words :slight_smile:

Phoenix

SleepEz, Rockymountain, flobedsā€¦

Agony of choice.

Hi Karamba,

I certainly understand the ā€œagonyā€

I think it took me longer to choose between all the final details and go from a few to one than it did to exclude many dozens of possible choices and narrow things down to the final few.

If you make a list of things that are important to you it may make it easier. Things such as ā€¦

Which one is closer (or can be made closer) to the design of mattresses I have tested and know might work well for me?

Are the differences in materials such as natural Talalay vs blended Talalay vs Natural Dunlop important to me for itā€™s own sake and which choices would I prefer?

Do any price differences (everything included and set up in the bedroom) give me options or value that is important to me?

Am I paying for options or features that I either need or donā€™t need?

How confident am I that I know what I want and how much do I need to rely on the skills and knowledge of the outlet.

What are the exchange or return policies including any costs involved if any?

Did I connect more with one outlet in my phone conversations than with the others.

Once you have the answers to these (and any others that are important to you) you are in a much better position to evaluate which choice may be best for you.

I know you probably know this but two of the three are members of this site which means that telling them you are a member of The Mattress Underground (because youā€™ve made a post on the forum) would entitle you to an additional 5% discount on your mattress.

The good news is that your last few choices are all better than the final choices that most people make when they purchase a mattress :slight_smile:

Phoenix

This is my first post so I would like to thank Phoenix for all of the great information on this website. I almost purchased an iComfort from the Sleep Train here in San Jose, so Iā€™m glad I came home to do the research fist.

I do have to admit the initial feel of the iComfort on the showroom floor felt better than my current tempur-pedic, so it was going to take allot of convincing to change my mind. But just as PC88 stated, after stumbling upon and reading this thread (The Serta iComfort mattress ... what's the buzz - #176 by phoenix) I was convinced that a natural talalay latex rubber mattress was the only way to go.

Next I stumbled upon this thread and your helpful list of factory direct manufactures. After driving all over the south bay testing latex mattresses I found a retail shop right near my house that sells a brand called Pure Latex Bliss.

After laying on all of the different styles of PLB mattresses I fell in love with the 8-inch queen size model. I paid a little bit over 2K with taxes. It gets delivered in 10 days. Should I have any buyers remorse, or did I make the right decision?

btw PC88, what mattress did you end up purchasing?

Hi Fetichini,

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I think my reply in the iComfort thread answered most of this in terms of my thoughts about the PLB (which I like) and outside of local factory direct manufacturers, IMO they are among the better values available.

The good news is that it uses very high quality materials and you can look forward to enjoying it for a very long time.

Phoenix

Thatā€™s all great news, I have no reason to worry then. Thanks again Phoenix! Iā€™ll be sure to post a review after I break it in a bit. :slight_smile: