Latex questions

Thanks, Phoenix. I appreciate the insight. I want to find a mattress that is comfortable after 8 hours, 8 weeks, 8 months, or 8 years, and the resources you offer here will hopefully guide us there.

I definitely think some testing of Savvy Rest is in order. While I liked the stretchy cover on the Boston Bed mattress, that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t also like the quilted cover. Something like SleepEZ seems like it could be a very good option if the Savvy Rest appeals to us.

I would certainly ask this question of any retailer we might order from, but in general, do you think that mattresses with 12" of latex are likely to be a better choice for heavier people?

Hi tamaracks,

It will depend on the specifics of the mattress and the person’s body type and sleeping positions but people in higher weight ranges will often prefer and sometimes even “need” a thicker mattress yes. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here.

Phoenix

dear tamaracks,
i just happened to go over all the vendors listed in the membership list looking for an all latex with organic cover king sized mattress and I was able to find at least three vendors that offered a very similar product - they were all under $2000! Just wanted to throw it out there - i believe once you know what kind you want it is relatively simple to compare and shop around.
thanks,
nel

Thanks again, Phoenix.

One more question for now. In the posture and alignment step of mattress shopping, are you suggesting to bring one’s own pillow to test a mattress? Just curious, because I think I’d feel weird bringing a pillow into a shop, but if that’s your suggestion and others have done it, then I’d give it a shot. :wink:

Thanks for the suggestion, nel, although to be clear, it wasn’t organic covers I was interested in exploring, but the thin, stretchy type of cover instead of the quilted variety. Not that I’m stuck on that type, it was just that one mattress we potentially liked had it, and I don’t see that type on as many of the latex mattresses that I’ve seen online so far, or in person if we wanted to test locally.

Hi tamaracks,

Yes … this is a good idea because the goal of good mattress testing is to “duplicate” your experience when you sleep at night as closely as possible. Most good retailers will also provide you with a pillow to test their mattresses but this may not be as “familiar” to you as your favorite pillow.

A suitable pillow is an important part of a sleeping system that can have a significant effect on the alignment of your head and neck and your upper body and can also affect the pressure you feel in your shoulders.

Phoenix

Okie doke, thanks for the confirmation. Now to find a time to get my husband out to some more stores!

Hi tamaracks,

That’s also a very good idea because a mattress can feel different when two people sleep on it rather than just one and you will be able to test for things like “roll together” if you sleep close together in the middle of the mattress or motion isolation if one of you tends to wake up with the movements of the other over the course of the night and of course to make sure that a mattress is suitable for both of you in terms of PPP as well :slight_smile:

Phoenix

I agree, I don’t want to go without him. It can just be tricky to find the time to get there, since so many smaller retailers are only open during his work hours, so that often just leaves Saturdays. That, and the places to try Savvy Rest are not as close as the places we visited last weekend. Not super far, but maybe 45 minutes, and on the other side of Boston, so dealing with more traffic, blech. :wink: It’s sometimes amazing how long it can take to get around a city that is not all that big.

We tried a few different beds this weekend. We went to The Clean Bedroom in Wellesley on Saturday, hoping to try Savvy Rest. They didn’t have much Savvy on display, because it seems that the Wellesley showroom is featuring Obasan now, so three beds in the tiny shop were devoted to that. They directed us to Obasan first (I didn’t ask about the Savvy until later). Obasan has a three section head-to-foot zoning that we really enjoyed. I don’t think we want to plunk down $5,299 for a mattress/foundation, but it did kind of sell me on the head-to-foot zoning idea in general. That may have just shot up our priority list. Some really nice people working at that store, and it was mostly empty because the weather was lousy.

They did have one twin size Savvy that I tried. It was a (bottom to top) firm/med/soft Dunlop with a soft Talalay topper. I liked the feel of the topper, though I suspect that the bed as a whole would have been too soft to sleep in. It did make me wonder if the Dunlop on the Obasan was feeling a little too firm on the surface to me. My husband thought it was too soft, but he liked the bed without the topper.

Today, we went to Bedrooms (creative name, huh?) in Peabody, MA, because a web search told me they carry PLB. PLB’s retailer locator is not currently available online, and I didn’t get a response from an email I sent to them. I wanted to get a little more experience with Talalay latex. They did have three beds on display, Pamper, Nature, and Beautiful. I think we liked the Pamper with the InteLa-Tec topper the most. My husband liked the Nature on its own, but I thought it might have felt just a little firm.

One thing I regret is that I was trying to find a combination that might work for side and stomach sleeping with the Obasan, but after I left, I thought maybe I should have tried focusing on just side sleeping also to see how that worked out.

I’m having trouble defining my sleep style accurately (not that I think you can define it for me, but maybe you have some feedback on my thought process). I’ve never had a mattress I picked out just for me. About 12 years ago, I moved in with my now husband, and ever since we’ve been sleeping on the innerspring mattress that he had bought prior to that. I’ve liked sleeping on my stomach because of the coziness (I think even before moving in with my husband), but also because I think the mattresses I’ve had have not supported me well on my side, so I end up not being fully comfortable in either position, thus switching back and forth. More recently in our time with the innerspring, I’d been stomach sleeping less both because the pressure on my knee would bother me and because the support of the lower back was becoming worse. I am not sure how much of the knee issue was due to my knee getting old and how much was due to the mattress breaking down.

We did in-home trials of both the Sleep Number and the Casper, and with those I haven’t been stomach sleeping at all, because they are too soft for my lower back. At this point, in the last several months I think I’ve been sleeping on my side pretty much all the time, turning from one side to the other.

It’s really hard (for me at least) to find a mattress that’s supportive enough on my stomach without being too hard on my hips while on my side. At this point, I may have trained myself to sleep on my side, so maybe I should just go with that. It is true that stomach sleeping can be really hard on my neck, and picking a pillow that works for both may be even more difficult than a bed that works for both. Maybe if I dial in a really comfy side-sleeping mattress setup, that will do the trick.

At this point, I am starting to lean towards Floods and plan to call them up tomorrow for a chat to see what advice they have.

I do have some questions the differences between Talalay/Dunlop and synthetic/natural. From what you’ve said, I know it’s mostly a personal preference, but I’m just trying to clarify what I’ve read to see if I’ve assimilated it correctly, especially since Flobeds is only Talalay.

  1. Talalay is often a synthetic/natural blend, in that 100% Talalay
    wasn’t available until more recently, but it sounds like that’s not necessarily a disadvantage. There isn’t a strong body of evidence for durability one way or the other.
  2. If it’s not explicitly stated as 100% natural Talalay by the manufacturer, then most likely it’s some sort of blend. I suspect that the Therapedics/Boston Bed model we tried is blended. The Savvy Rest topper seems like it would be 100% natural? Do you know about the PLB mattresses? I would guess blended. Also, the retailer had three toppers on display, one was labeled organic, so that might have been 100% natural, one was labeled InteLa-tec, which as far as I can tell is a blend (unless it’s all synthetic? Is that done?), and the other was labeled Active Fusion, which seems to be their temperature-regulating version of latex. Seems likely to me that it would be some kind of blend, but it did feel different than the InteLa-tec. Mostly I’m just trying to get a handle on the ways in which the latex we have felt in person might compare to Flobeds either blended or 100% natural Talalay).
  3. Dunlop is often regarded as firmer feeling than Talalay at the same ILDs.
  4. Talalay has a somewhat different compression response than Dunlop?

Are there any drawbacks related to higher weight individuals with Talalay (i.e. durability or support) as opposed to Dunlop? Or is it just a matter of choosing the correct firmness (and the personal preference factor of course). Mainly, I’m just trying to figure out if there are any obvious gotchas lurking if we go with Flobeds.

It’s hard to say without testing the exact mattress, but at this point, we’ve tried some Talalay that we liked, so I think there’s at least a good chance that it could work out for us preference-wise. We haven’t done the most thorough job at alignment testing. I don’t have the best confidence in my testing abilities in general, and I feel kind of awkward in stores, but that’s where a return policy/comfort exchange comes in handy.

I really do feel more comfortable having a return policy versus the local retailers where often you can only exchange for another product they sell or do a comfort exchange on layers (i.e. Savvy and Obasan). While I believe we’ve tried enough latex at this point that I really think it could work for us, there’s still that element of the unknown. The Flobeds comfort guarantee (I know it’s not an exchange because you keep the old piece) is more expensive on their cores than some other manufacturers would be in the short term after purchase, but it does extend longer. Additionally, the vZone model adds a big advantage because they will send you free sections for the vZone in the first 100 days and only $20 in the next five years. That gives a lot of flexibility to adjust after purchase without too much extra cash outlay (unless of course one of the full cores turns out to be the issue).

Hi tamaracks,

With some of the issues that have been involved with their chapter 11 bankruptcy they have probably lost some retailers so they may have decided to take it down so they can update it. It’s unfortunate though especially if they aren’t replying to emails in a timely way.

[quote]One thing I regret is that I was trying to find a combination that might work for side and stomach sleeping with the Obasan, but after I left, I thought maybe I should have tried focusing on just side sleeping also to see how that worked out.

I’m having trouble defining my sleep style accurately (not that I think you can define it for me, but maybe you have some feedback on my thought process). I’ve never had a mattress I picked out just for me. About 12 years ago, I moved in with my now husband, and ever since we’ve been sleeping on the innerspring mattress that he had bought prior to that. I’ve liked sleeping on my stomach because of the coziness (I think even before moving in with my husband), but also because I think the mattresses I’ve had have not supported me well on my side, so I end up not being fully comfortable in either position, thus switching back and forth. More recently in our time with the innerspring, I’d been stomach sleeping less both because the pressure on my knee would bother me and because the support of the lower back was becoming worse. I am not sure how much of the knee issue was due to my knee getting old and how much was due to the mattress breaking down.

We did in-home trials of both the Sleep Number and the Casper, and with those I haven’t been stomach sleeping at all, because they are too soft for my lower back. At this point, in the last several months I think I’ve been sleeping on my side pretty much all the time, turning from one side to the other.[/quote]

If you find it relatively easy to avoid stomach sleeping then that can be a good idea because stomach sleeping is a much more risky sleeping position than either back or side sleeping. It’s also more challenging to find a mattress that provides good pressure relief for side sleeping without being too soft for stomach sleeping since the two sleeping positions have almost opposite requirements. Stomach sleepers generally need a thinner and firmer comfort layer to prevent their pelvis from sinking down too far and sleeping is a swayback position (which can lead to lower back pain and discomfort) while side sleepers generally need thicker/softer comfort layers so that their pressure points (hips and shoulders) can sink into the mattress more deeply to provide the pressure relief that they need. When you need to make a compromise between these two sleeping positions then it’s generally best to choose a mattress that is “just barely soft enough” to relieve pressure points for side sleeping so that there is less risk to alignment in your other sleeping positions … especially your stomach. Firmer zones under the heavier parts of your body can also be helpful for combination stomach/side sleepers.

I’m not sure if you’ve read this but there is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is more about the differences between the “feel” of Talalay and Dunlop in post #7 here.

[quote]1. Talalay is often a synthetic/natural blend, in that 100% Talalay
wasn’t available until more recently, but it sounds like that’s not necessarily a disadvantage. There isn’t a strong body of evidence for durability one way or the other.[/quote]

100% natural Talalay may be a little less durable in softer ILD’s but would probably be similar in terms of durability in higher ILD’s. There is more about 100% natural talalay vs blended Talalay in post #2 here. I would also keep in mind that all latex will be a durable material compared to other types of foam (polyfoam and memory foam)

This is probably a “safe” assumption in “most” cases but part of good research is to make sure you can find out the type and quality of all the layers in a mattress which in the case of latex means the type and blend (see this article) so that you don’t have to make any assumptions in the first place.

Yes … Savvy Rest uses either organic Dunlop or 100% natural Talalay (made by Radium).

The InteLa-tec is a new latex formulation that has only been available for a few weeks. It’s made from 100% synthetic Talalay latex.

The only organic latex would be 100% natural Dunlop.

Active Fusion is blended Talalay latex that has phase change gel added to the formula. There is more about what Latex International calls Talalay GL fast response and PLB calls Active Fusion) in post #5 here and post #2 here.

[quote]3. Dunlop is often regarded as firmer feeling than Talalay at the same ILDs.
4. Talalay has a somewhat different compression response than Dunlop?[/quote]

Dunlop gets firmer faster than Talalay when you compress it more deeply but it would depend on how deeply the layers were compressed. If both layers were the same thickness and ILD and they were both compressed 25% (which is where the ILD measurement is taken) then they would feel about the same. If each layer was compressed more deeply than 25% then the Dunlop would feel firmer for most people. If each layer was compressed less than 25% then the Dunlop may feel softer than the Talalay. Since most top layers are compressed more than 25% … if all the other factors were equal then the Dunlop would tend to feel firmer.

It would be a matter of choosing the most suitable combination of layers in terms of thickess and firmness for each person and wouldn’t be an issue of the type of latex which is strictly a preference choice.

There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress and how to lessen the risks involved with each of them in post #2 here but if for any reason you aren’t confident that the choice you make will be a good “match” for you in terms of PPP then the exchange or return policy and all the options you have after a purchase would become a more important part of the “value” of a purchase.

I think that you have a good handle on all the pros and cons involved “in theory” so I think a more detailed conversation would be the next step in the process.

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding … and of course any other questions or comments you may have along the way.

Phoenix

Yeah, I could have called PLB to see if I got a response that way, but once I found one retailer, I wasn’t too concerned. I mostly just wanted to have another latex mattress we could try in person. The mattresses seemed pretty nice, but I do like the idea of a component mattress more. Interestingly, the price cards in the store seemed to be way cheaper than the MSRP advertised on PLB’s site.

Thanks for the reply! I’ve read a bunch of the posts here, but after a while of reading pieces scattered about it helps to have confirmation that I’ve integrated the information correctly. I’ll be calling Flobeds soon and put my knowledge to use.

I would once not have thought that I could avoid stomach sleeping, but clearly making it extra uncomfortable was the key. :wink: I think the more comfortable I can make side sleeping, the less tempted I’ll be to switch to my stomach.

Hi tamaracks,

If you can avoid stomach sleeping it’s usually a good idea for the sake of your back as well as for the sake of your neck which certainly doesn’t like to maintain a twisted position. At the very least it’s a good idea to put a thin pillow under the hips/lower abdomen when you are a stomach sleeper. Along the same lines of being “uncomfortable” … one of the ways that people often use to break the habit of stomach sleeping is to tape a tennis ball to the front of their pyjamas (or putting it in a front pocket) so that they will wake up if they switch to sleeping on their stomach.

In some cases … a body pillow that you can snuggle up to can provide some of the “emotional” satisfaction or sense of “safety” while you are side sleeping that is part of the reason that some people prefer to sleep on their stomach.

Phoenix

A body pillow would be nice, but I don’t think it would fit well on our bed with the two of us. Sometimes it would be nice to have a king size to have room for something like that, but a queen fits so much better in our bedroom.

Although, in the future, if a new mattress makes me toss and turn less, then maybe a body pillow would have less chance of ending up on the floor than it currently would.

I had a couple phone conversations this week with Dewey, who was very pleasant and helpful with picking out the right firmness for our order and answering all my questions. We placed our order today, but I asked them to hold off on shipping so that it won’t arrive until after we return from holiday travel.

Being on the other side of the country from Flobeds, we wouldn’t have much time to get the mattress set up and use it before we leave at this point. Also, if I loved it, then I might not want to go sleep on the awful bed at my mother’s house. :wink: And if I didn’t love it/adjust to it right away, I’d be fretting about what that meant while we were gone.

So, a little more patience is necessary, but it gives me something to look forward to when we come home! The Sleep Number has been returned and refunded (except all the bedding I ended up buying. Ah well.), the Casper is being picked up next week, and a new bed is on order, things are coming together! Whether this selection turns out to be right or wrong, I at least feel like it’s a more informed choice this time, thanks to you and this site.

Hi tamaracks,

It sounds like you made a great choice and as you know I think very highly of Flobeds and the quality and design of their mattresses.

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to your comments and feedback once you receive it after your holidays and have had a chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix

FYI, in my conversations with Dewey, I asked where they got their latex from and he said that the blended Talalay is from Latex International while the all natural is from Radium (which looks to be confirmed here: https://www.flobeds.com/information/latex/what-is-latex.htm). I believe in past discussions you’ve stated that they used Radium for both blended and natural, so just putting that out there in case you weren’t aware of what I assume was a change in suppliers at some point.

Hi tamaracks,

Yes … I thought that they had switched to Radium for both the blended and the 100% natural so I appreciate the updated information … thank you :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Just popping in for a brief update since it’s been a while. We just got the bed yesterday. Not Flobeds’ fault at all, I had asked them to hold the shipment so it would arrive after we returned from Christmas travel, and then between the holiday closures and higher demand, it was almost 2 calendar weeks before it got here. It was in the nearest UPS depot for a week, but it arrived on the day that UPS had said that it would, so it wasn’t late, just frustrating!

We got it all together last night. Probably shouldn’t have started as late as we did, since I had to wait for my husband to get home from work, but I didn’t really want to wait any longer! I think it took us about three hours for everything.

We ordered their foundation (with the fir slats), the high impact plastic glide legs, and the accompanying headboard brackets. The foundation seems quite solid and went together easily with the eight wing nuts (except we thought we only had seven washers until I moved the foundation and found the eighth washer on the floor underneath). The legs went on easily also. Some of them seemed a little not quite straight, but I don’t think it made a difference once everything was flipped over on the floor.

The headboard brackets had to be screwed to the foundation. I kind of wish that they had drilled pilot holes or something, because it was a little hard to be sure they were even/square. I also wish they held the headboard a little steadier, though I think that’s often an issue with many headboard mounting systems.

The separate left/right foundation sections make sense with the way they are constructed and shipped, but they do make it a little challenging to get lined up with the head board and to slide the bed afterwards. It all seems quite solid in the end, though, and that’s the most important thing.

The mattress cover seems quite nice. The top feels nicely plush, but I think the knit fabric leaves a good amount of give, even with the quilting and wool. The top of the cover comes off completely, which was handy when loading in the latex, and the zipper works smoothly.

With some wiggling and waving, we got the latex in. Our bottom two layers are the same on each side, super firm on the bottom, then extra firm. The vZone usually follows the firmness of the middle layer, so my husband’s is extra firm, but when I spoke to Dewey, I mentioned that when we tested mattresses, the ones my husband liked I found to be a little too firm on the shoulder and hip area, so for me he recommended the firm vZone layer. The convolute layer went on top, then it all zipped up in a nice package.

I put a Luna mattress protector on, then the sheets. and voila! So far, it seems pretty comfy, and I think I like the vZone, but one night isn’t a good test, of course. After all that wrangling, my back was killing me, so it’s hard to say if the alignment is right yet, and I’m still adjusting to the feel. It is fairly bouncy. It’s interesting to me that I can feel the tips of the convolute layer through the mattress cover. Not significantly, just a faint bumpiness. It’s neither good nor bad (at least not yet), just different.

We had also ordered the free pillows, but I had called back before shipment to request standard size instead of queen (because very few pillow cases I’ve ever seen have actually been queen size) and the ones we got turned out to be the queen anyway. (I think. The markings for the size check boxes are a little smudged, and they are enormous, so at first I thought they were king, but either way, not standard.) I phoned them up today, and they are going to ship us out the standard size with a label to send back the queen ones for free, so that should be remedied soon enough. I didn’t open the ones we have, since I figured we’d have to send them back. Looking forward to trying them once we get the right ones.

So those are my initial thoughts. I’ll be back after we get some more sleeping time in.

Thanks,
Tamara

Hi tamaracks,

Thanks for taking the time to share your comments and such detailed feedback … I appreciate it :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to any additional updates you have the chance to share once you’ve slept on your mattress for a bit.

Phoenix

Well, it took me longer than I thought to come up with an update, but I’m back. :wink:

It took me a lot of trial and error to get the right fit. At first it felt comfy, but after a couple weeks it was less so. I think that was probably due to the mattress cover getting broken in. At that point, I had to start experimenting. I tried various configurations of the v-zone layer, including getting some new sections from Flobeds, but nothing was right Finally, I reversed the configuration of the two bottom layers. I had started with super firm on the bottom and extra firm above that. Putting the super firm on top of the extra firm got me closer, but I still wasn’t there yet. After consultation with Dewey at Flobeds, it seemed that two super firms was the way to go, so I did have to buy an extra layer at the reduced rate per Flobeds’ comfort policy. However Dewey was kind enough to waive the super firm surcharge for that layer, so that helped out.

Funnily enough, two super firms under the v-zone had been Dewey’s recommendation when we ordered the bed, but so many of the firmer latex beds I had laid on in stores felt uncomfortable to me, so I was nervous and we backed off to super firm/extra firm. Let that be a lesson, those guys know what they are talking about! I would also recommend talking to them before ordering rather than relying solely on the online configurator. What Dewey recommended, even with the alteration I asked for, was not what the online configurator suggested for either my husband or I.

I also had to do more experimenting with the v-zone. At first, I felt like the lumbar zone being different than the hip wasn’t working for me, because I seemed to not always get myself in the right position and would sometimes wake up with lower back pain feeling like my body was twisted differently than usual. So for a while, I had more of a three zone configuration since some of the sections were the same firmness. Once I worked up to the two super firm base layers and extra firm under my hip and lumbar, I decided that I needed to try more support on the lumbar again, so I put a super firm in, and this time, it seems to have worked. I rarely feel like I am out of alignment with the zones anymore.

So, once I was settled with the two super firms, with the v-zone configured as soft/soft/superfirm/extrafirm/firm/medium from head to toe (i think. I can’t quite remember the exact head and foot areas at this point, but I am sure of the lumbar and hip), I was finally in a pretty good place and stayed that way for a couple months. That was back at the end of March/beginning of April when I reached that point.

I did make one other change relatively recently. As the weather started warming up, I felt like the thin waterproof Luna mattress protector might be making me too sweaty. But I didn’t seem to have much luck with anything resembling a classic mattress pad, because I tried the sleep number mattress pad and the sleep number in balance comfort layer (both of which have that typical quilting) on top at various points, and felt that it made the surface too firm and not conforming enough. But I wasn’t willing to give up a waterproof protector. So I wound up buying a Sleep & Beyond wool mattress pad from Amazon. It’s a thinner one, like an inch thick, rather than the thicker one they also make, because I didn’t really want more height on the bed. It goes on top of the Luna mattress protector, and it did help with temperature regulation. It also made the bed even more comfortable, which surprised me a little! It feels like it both increases secondary support under the lumbar area and provides added cushioning on the shoulder. I am loving the bed even more with that.

While it isn’t cheap, the wool pad is a lot less expensive than the mattress, so at least I won’t feel too bad if it gets stained.

This is the pad: https://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Beyond-80-Inch-Washable-Mattress/dp/B007DRIA2I/(Which I see is now cheaper than when I ordered it on July 6th. Curse you, Amazon! shakes fist I wish they still had the after-purchase price guarantee.)

So that’s the story! Although I may have a sequel brewing with pillows. I’ve been using the twice shredded talalay latex pillow that came with the bed, and it’s pretty comfy, but I don’t always feel like I get the best neck support, because the latex seems to get pushed away from the front edge of the pillow, making it flatter. So I might be making some more forays in that area.

Thanks once again for all the great advice you give here. You helped give me the courage to order one of these latex beds online. I am quite happy with Flobeds. I haven’t slept on Dunlop or a non-zoned mattress, so I can’t compare for sure, but I do feel like the v-zone really added something for me, and the Talalay is very nice. Dewey and the others at Flobeds were all very helpful, as well.

Hi tamaracks,

Thanks for taking the time to come back after a few months and share such a detailed and informative update … I appreciate it.

It seems that it really did take some trial and error to get there but it’s great to see that you ended up with a configuration (and mattress protector) that is working out so well for you.

I also completely agree with you that online configurators aren’t nearly as reliable as a source of guidance as a more detailed phone conversation which is why I so often stress the importance of a phone call with a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer or retailer with any online mattress purchase.

It sounds like now you can just enjoy sleeping on your mattress instead of making changes to it :slight_smile:

There is more information about choosing a pillow in the pillow topic here that may be helpful.

Phoenix