Mattress comfort layers - Memory foam

[Sensei]

Hey Mia12345,

Thanks for the post, no worries about the radio silence, and thank you for the kind words.

Let me answer some of the questions and some misc points. Totally understand about the sense of adventure and DIY, but you wouldn’t be the first to do a “DIY Light”, shall we say….just make some adjustments and you know may just work for x amount of years.

Even if you are not totally into it there are some basics that have proven to be clearly successful. A quick read of putting the layers together overview is helpful, to know differential and progressive construction. More details on differential hereand progressive here. I think you should start with progressive layering firmer / thicker height - more plush / thinner height.

As you know, latex and memory foam are very different materials with very different properties, and your preference is memory foam. But… if you were to get any latex I would say look for a 2" or 3" 19-22 ILD Talalay topper, this plush Talalay can work with most memory foam toppers, or on it’s own on top of a mattress.

The latex you tried is not the right choice for you, too firm, not his fault, it probably just what he had. Maybe your local guy can get a 19ild topper? Or, buy one as you know, a lot of the trusted members have Talalay toppers. Sleep EZ, Arizona Premium. Flo Beds, and Foam Sweet Foam…to name a few.

I’ve continued to test various components and found a local custom mattress person who built me something with an assortment of layers. I’ve been working with:

• 6in flexible individually wrapped springs which I’m pretty sure I don’t like the pushiness of
  -2 in. dunlop latex layer which has firmness issue mentioned above
  -assortment of MF layers/toppers - nice quality 2 in. gel 6lbs, and 3 in. 4lbs and cheapo Bed Bath Beyond quality 1.5 in. (not sure density) and 3 in 2lbs
  -Two 1 in. polyfoam layers labeled “16” and “23”

Given this, I’m wondering if finding a topper or two to put on top of an existing memory foam mattress (I still have the Novosbed soft, which I find way too solid with not enough sink), might be easier. Does that make any sense? Should I turn it upside down to really approximate using it like a MF core/base (so the polyfoam base is at the top and then I can add comfort and transition layers - or is that crazy)?

No not crazy at all, you should do this!!!

It will be interesting how you view the difference between the coil unit. Do you know the manufacturer of the coil unit? Model #? Do you know the specs of the Novosbed? Probably best to try combos on the foam, better chance to get where you want to be. Try the Novosbed, how long ago did you purchase this? No Amerisleep? Try it first regular side up, you could turn it over, but try that later.

Make topper combos - higher density below lower densities. lower height on top of higher height.

Example - Top - 1.5 inch one of the better ones you like / 2nd Layer - 2.0 inch 6lb Gel (wish this was 3"). You may need a good high quality 3" 5lb memory foam.

The 19 ILD topper 2" can be used over the 2" 6lb, 3" 4lb, or the 2" Dunlop. And over the 3" 5lb (if you get this). This may work a lot easier, I would be interested. Plus it feels more like what you used to like. Not innerspring but foam bed with good layers. But you have to sleep on your favorite (s) and give it some time, if you find one you like.

Ask any quick questions if I am not making sense :).

It is nice to hear back from you…

Sensei

[Mia12345]

Hi Sensei,

Thanks again! Good to know I’m on track with the next step and that does mostly make sense.

I looked at the list of recommended places to buy MF toppers/layers on this site. I’ve purchased a 1 in. 4lb from Foamorder (on its way) since I liked the feel of the 3 in. 4 lb I have, but my butt was sinking in too far.

But, I’m not finding a good 2 or 3 in. 5 lb from that short list. Sadly, Memory Foam Comfort doesn’t seem to ship to the US or else I could get their 2 in. 5 lb. I’m not sure where else to look for a good quality one! I did also find a reversible layer of 1 in. 4lb attached to 1 in. 5lb.

Based on your message, I’m planning to try combinations like: 1.5 in. lower density/cheap one I had, 1 in. 4 lb, 2 in. 6lb, on top of the Novosbed Soft.

I’m not sure about the specs for Novosbed Soft. I see others reporting on Medium and Firm on https://mattressunderground.com/talk-to-the-experts/expert-member-section/memory-foam-comfort-f/22066-new-novosbed-mattress-its-layers.html?start=0 TMU. I can try to call them, but I think it’s something like:
-2 in. 3.7lbs Gel MF?
-3 in 4lb MF?
-7 in premium support foam

So, the layering isn’t quite progressing because below the toppers it goes back to lower density again. I also received their Comfort Plus soft topper 2 in. 1.8 lb, but it’s not MF.

I do still have the Amerisleep mattress, but was going to return it soon because of the intense feeling of overarch in my lower back that I get (which I feel even with the 3 in. 4lb topper on it), unless there’s reason to think it’d be a better “base” than the Novosbed.

Is there really no objective, at-home way to measure how far you sink into a mattress? I’m craving more data and science and less “how does it feel to you?”

Thanks again. It’s almost a year since losing my previous comfortable bed and this is getting so old!

[Sensei]

Hey Mia1234,

Nice to hear from you. If you can’t find any 5lb memory foam then you can still get them on Amazon or one of the foam order online companies, they do still carry good quality foam, and I can get back to you if you have a question on one of the companies.

So, the layering isn’t quite progressing because below the toppers it goes back to lower density again. I also received their Comfort Plus soft topper 2 in. 1.8 lb, but it’s not MF.

The specs you listed are still “progressing” because the base core for a poly foam/memory foam bed is always a 1.8 or 2.0 lb high-density foam, so this isn’t what we refer to in progressing as its the support core, progressing is usually relative to comfort layers.

Is there really no objective, at-home way to measure how far you sink into a mattress? I’m craving more data and science and less “how does it feel to you?”

I don’t know any at home ways to get data…I have heard of people rigging up a camera /computer and take pictures from the side to see one’s alignment on the mattress.

Any luck with a 19ILD Talalay?

Thanks
Sensei

[Mia12345]

Thanks, Sensei!

I’d love to order from a TMU trusted member, but am just having trouble finding ones that ship to US with memory foam toppers of the kind you were suggesting (have 4lbs/4.5lbs covered with two in that range already). Very open to suggestions.

Searching around Amazon for 5 lbs, I see these brands:
Memory Foam Solutions
DreamDNA

There are other options for 3 lbs, which I don’t currently have either. Places where you can try out memory foam toppers would be awesome!

Is there anything to take into account when deciding which MF mattress to use as a “base”? I’m within the sleep trial still, so could return the Novosbed if it doesn’t seem like a good “base,” especially if it’s better to just buy an actual foam base/core.

I guess I meant not progressing because under the 2 to 3 toppers will be the comfort layers of the Novosbed, which are less dense than the topper above it. But, if this is normal DIY light, as you say, then that works for me! Again, complete lack of adventure here and interested in following successful footsteps of others so as to be comfortable again asap. If you’ve seen other posts like mine, please link away. I tried to search the forum, but haven’t come across anything.

I think I found a local store with a Talalay 19ILD topper so I’ll try to get there (but low hopes given how I’ve felt lying on Talalay mattresses).

As always, thanks for listening!

[Sensei]

Hey Mia1234,

Thanks for the post. I see what you mean on the 5lb topper from USA members. I believe the MFS would be perfectly fine to try, and the Amazon return process is consumer friendly.

Just a point of reference, the 19ild Talalay when used on top of a memory foam topper will provide a feel that is different than the “Talalay mattresses” you had tried in the past. I am not sure those were the best “latex feels” out there.

Regarding the base mattress, what was the Amerisleep mattress model that you also have. I think the model with the more “durable” base would probably be the better choice. Forward it to me again, and I will try to look at the differences in these two.

Thanks,
Sensei

[Mia12345]

Hi Sensei,

Thanks!

I’ve purchased the MFS 2 in. 5lb topper.

It’s the Amerisleep AS4. But, my sleep trial done in a couple weeks, whereas I have some more time with the Novosbed to try out the newly ordered layers. In terms of feel, the Novosbed is more uniform and “firm,” whereas the AS4 does some weird arch-thing in just my lower back.

Here are the Novosbed specs as provided by them:
Soft:
1" - 3.7lb / 8 IFD - 5th generation high-density gel visco-elastic memory foam
1" - 1.95 lb / 9 IFD - 5th generation premium airflow foam
2" - Plush 2.5lb / 12IFD - 5th generation open-cell pneumatic memory foam
7" - 1.75 lb / 32 IFD - Premium support foam

Does it make sense to stick some not MF/polyfoam layers in between the MF layers? I have two different 1 inch polyfoam layers. It’s funny to think that before this I thought of beds as one uniform object and now they only exist as layers.

Thanks again!

[Sensei]

Hey Mia1234,

Well, even though we know it is “layers in a mattress”, you are right in a way as they are all connected together, laminated together, making up one single feel, with everything working together. So when adding toppers to a mattress…it really is like adding to one unit. So for the sake of the DIY lite, don’t worry too much as to exactly what the top layers are in the Novosbed, and just build up your one or two layers on top.

Also, you may want to try the toppers under a mattress pad, and under the fitted sheet? Are you doing this already? Sometimes mattress pad can firm up your toppers a little…which may be a good thing, just food for thought as you “test” more.

Sensei

[Mia12345]

Thanks, Sensei! That makes sense. I am trying them under the fitted sheet and some of the toppers have comfy covers on them too.

If you end up with any thoughts about Novosbed as a “base,” just getting an actual foam base, or trying harder to make the Amerisleep a base, I’m all ears! Thanks again.

[Sensei]

Hey Mia1234

Just fyi, once you mentioned the Amerisleep gave you some kind of “arching” thing, I didnt really compare the two products. I did do a quick lookup on the Amerisleep AS4 and I have to say that I don’t really even know what this layer is:

ENHANCED “FEELS-LIKE-YOU’RE-FLOATING” LAYER

The Affinity layer with Surface Modification Technology (SMT) is our ergonomic transition foam. It has “zones” that provide extra pressure relief in key areas like the shoulders and lower back, along with precision-cut channels that carry away even more heat and moisture. It’s enough to make you feel like you’re weightlessly resting on a cloud.

It may be that this “zoning” they have in this layer, does have too much firmness and/or pushback on your hips/lower back area. It seems like this may not be the right one to try to improve as we may be trying to overcome other variables that don’t work for you. Just my thoughts after taking a look at the Amerisleep AS4.

Have a good weekend.

Sensei

[Mia12345]

Hi Sensei,

Thanks for the thoughts on the Amerisleep - that makes a lot of sense!

I wanted to circle back to the question about buying a polyfoam core/base vs building off the existing Novosbed. I felt like I was on the right track, but yesterday was one of the warmest days we’ve had this year and the bed felt completely different. I woke up with nerve compression/tingly feet I know temperature changes MF feel, but it seems a bit much to have winter vs summer versions of my bed layers!

Mostly, I’m wondering if the 3 inches of MF in the top comfort layers in the Novosbed aren’t stable enough to build on, since they’re so impacted by the warmer weather (1" - 3.7lb / 8 IFD and 2" - Plush 2.5lb / 12IFD)?

Would it be better to build on an actual polyfoam support core? If so, I’m having trouble finding a list of places to get a core/recommendations on polyfoam cores from TMU (might not be searching for right keywords…).

Or should I continue to focus on the few inches of MF I’m adding on top? Last night, it felt like I was going right through the top MF comfort layer/topper…again maybe bc of the warmer weather. When MF gets warm, I think that means that my whole body “goes through” or compresses more (not just the heavier hips/butt) and hits the firmer layer underneath, in which case, I’d want to add in another comfort layer to cushion? I really wish I understood the physics here more!

Thank you again!

[Sensei]

Hey Mia,

You do point out the memory foam and temperature issues, it is a fact with memory foam that warmer temperatures do cause the foam to soften much quicker.

Your logic about starting out and building on a “foam core” is theoretically better than trying to manage an existing mattress as a base. And then the “traditional memory foam” temperature issue will be there going forward. I was hoping the “DIY lite” may help relieve some of the short term issues.

I am going to check a few of the members and see about the core, if not then you may have to order from one of the recognized foam suppliers. I will forward some of these links later today.

Thanks
Sensei

[Mia12345]

Hi Sensei,

Thanks so much!

I’m curious if there are any general principles for how to adjust layers when seasons change and seeking a greater understanding of what actually happens. Is the issue that the MF compresses more in warmer temperatures (hence my feeling of going " right through" my top comfort layer)? If so, do people just add in an additional comfort layer when the weather gets hotter? Should this be something that is similar to what they had already - just more of it so as not to “go through” - or something firmer, softer? If polyfoam is less reactive, then is adding an additional layer of that the way to adjust vs MF?

As always, thank you! I did a quick count of how many iterations/combinations of layers I’ve tested in just the last few months and lost track around 55…I’d like to believe we’re in the home stretch here! Just feeling like my sensitivity to the temperature change has thrown a wrench in.

Happy weekend, Mia12345

[Sensei]

Hey Mia1234,

Happy Memorial day weekend to you.

You make an interesting point about memory foam and what people do during different seasons? Quite frankly I believe the majority of people just get used to the changes, either the dramatic or the subtle ones and don’t adjust at all.

There is some really good information about memory foam in this article, that you may or may not have read…memory foam pros and cons.

[quote]If polyfoam is less reactive, then is adding an additional layer of that the way to adjust vs MF?
[/quote]

Yes, in theory, this is correct but the issue is is that poly foam that is 1.8lb or 2.0lb density is used as a support core and are not as advantageous as comfort layers. What is becoming more popular are the approx 3.0 to 4.0 lb polyfoams that are an instant recovery that act more like latex foam, and are not as temperature sensitive as traditional memory foam. I am not sure if any of members sell this type of foam as toppers. I will be looking at some of their sites today and will let you know if I see any of this kind. Did you get to try the 19ild Talalay?

Thanks again, I really hope we are close.

Sensei

[Mia12345]

Hi Sensei,

Thanks again for the helpful offer to think about members who provide 3 or 4lb polyfoam layers or foam cores.

In the meantime, I’ve turned the Novosbed upside down to approximate a memory foam support core/base, but I can’t imagine this is as effective as just buying an actual core/base? Or as affordable?

I’ve been trying to build up as suggested as similar to the previously loved Comforpedic:
-1-2 inches of less dense memory foam that’s comfy (1.8 to 4lb),
-1-2 inches of polyfoam,
-then higher density 1-2 inches MF (5 or 6lb),
-then core/base.

As you pointed out, an issue might be that I only have low density polyfoam. I don’t even know what the “16” and “23” layers I have are! The Novosbed Comfortplus topper is 1.8lbs, ILD 9 PF.

I haven’t gotten to try any 19ILD talalay yet, but hope to soon. I think you’re implying that this latex is an alternative to the 3 or 4lb PF idea?

Unfortunately, I’m feeling under the gun having to decide about the Novosbed within the sleep trial and given the new nerve compression that I can’t shake, so all suggestions greatly appreciated!

[Sensei]

Hi Mia12345,

Thank you for the post.
You are correct turning the Novasbed upside down is not going to be more effective than just buying an actual core base; it’s really used as a trial to see if you can approximate the mattress that is best for you.

The only caution I have is that be careful of the polyfoam layers that are not memory foam. As transition layers and a mattress they can be helpful but as you put them on top of a polyfoam they really are part of your comfort layers.

Regarding the 19 ILD talalay topper, I don’t really think of it as a replacement of anything in particular, more of these best latex comfort layer for pressure relief. If you had that, and 4+ lb. memory foam, I would use the Talalay above memory foam. These two material technologies, memory foam and latex act as excellent pressure relieving layers. Any miscellaneous polyfoam layers 1.8 or 1.9, 16 or 23. Etc…I think of what use are they. They can be good as a transition from base support core to comfort layers.

Understood on the Novasbed, I hate to ask this, as I don’t want to throw you way off, but in any of your retail visits have you tried any hybrid/latex or hybrid memory foam beds? Some members have excellent exchange programs for the topper/comfort layers, and the pocketed coil bases make for excellent support cores.

Thanks
Sensei

[Mia12345]

Thanks Sensei!

Regarding PF as comfort layers, I was just building off of the Comforpedic specs which list not-MF comfort layers and your suggestion to look into 3 or 4 lb PF, since what I have currently is too low density to work. If I’m understanding your suggestion correctly, then if any members sell 3 or 4lb non-MF, I’d be very interested in that!

I’ll order a foam core to build off of, maybe medium (like 1.75 lb / 32 IFD like the Novosbed had) to be safe (since easier to make softer than it is to make something firmer with top layers). Sad that DIY lite hasn’t quite panned out using the existing Novosbed Soft I had, but good to know that it has been feeling better using that approximation than back when I had an innerspring core.

I have laid on a bunch of hybrids at the stores and found them all to be “pushy” when compared to the not-hybrids – even finding latex “pushy,” but going to try to find some 19ild Talalay as you’ve recommended to test as a comfort layer.

Thanks again!

[Sensei]

Hey Mia12345,

This sometimes can get very confusing my apologies if I sent you in the wrong direction. I do not think you should be looking for three or 4-pound polyfoam. I do think you should look for three or 4-pound memory foam that is a better approximation of the field that you had indicated you like.

Regarding the base foam core, it is recommended that 1.8lb is the minimum density. 35IFD is good. Noted on the hybrid mattresses I remember now. Noted on the latex mattress, you are not the only one that has this “issue” with latex.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Thanks
Sensei

[Mia12345]

Hi Sensei,

Yes, I definitely was barking up the wrong tree based on your previous post. This is confusing stuff!

So:
-lower density MF
-higher density MF
-low density polyfoam or latex if I find one that’s not too “pushy” as transition layers
-foam base

If you know any good posts that go through DIY memory foam bed recommended build specs/ advice, I’m all ears. Hoping to make this quick and painless. Will try to approximate the Comforpedic as much as possible given that there were no details on densities or ILD…Thanks!

[Sensei]

Hey Mia12345,

So I was looking back at the brochure, and wanted to look at the layers again…so I then decided to see if I can find some other ILD info. So I googled “aircool transflexion core” and I found some other sites discussing this mattress from 2013/14/15…but I also found websites that have it for sale still, but I am sure they are not available.

I want to find exact specs on this bed, it now bothers me, because this foam is readily available I am sure…I will message you if I find something from a Simmons executive I know pretty well. We’ll see.

I also decided to google “Comforpedic Advanced Rest Luxury Firm” again…and on this Amazon link (product unavailable, of course) I found these specs:
(Bold - good info / Red - no density info)
(Ignore the Edge support, no way you could replicate that)

Features: • 9.5" High • 9.5" CPA Zippered Bucket • 9.5" CPA Core • 1" 4.0 AirCool Memory Foam with TruTemp Gel • 1" Firm Comfort Foam • 2" 4.5 LB AirCool Memory Foam • 2" Independent Support Technology • 3.5" AirCool Transflexion Core • 1.65 LB 45 ILD AirCool Edge Support

I will message again a couple of days, also have you checked out Foamorder.com for different foam densities/MF, etc?

Sensei

[Mia12345]

Hi Sensai,

Thanks for looking into this again! That’s good intel!

Just to make sure I’m understanding - the 1" Firm Comfort Foam must be polyfoam that’s not memory foam (or else they would have just said “memory foam”)? Which is another reason why I was thinking of sandwiching MF, other foam, MF in my layers.

It looks like the company Future Foam made the foam in the Comforpedic, but I didn’t see a way to tell which of their still-available toppers would be related. And per previous post, they weren’t able to provide Comforpedic details (told me to call Simmons) when I called (but did seem very nice).

I did buy a 1 inch 4lb from foamorder based on posts I’d read. It feels nice enough and could definitely get other layers there as needed.

I finally found a 19 ILD Talalay topper to try. It was definitely different than the Dunlop, but still felt too pushy/bouncy to warrant spending the money. Good to try though!

Fingers crossed that your Simmons contact has more ideas!