Mattress Exchange

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hello,
I wish I had found this site sooner! What a fantastic resource! I’ve gotten myself into a bit of a sticky situation. I bought an Englander Latex mattress at a family owned mattress store in town a few months ago. My last mattress, which I loved, was a latex pillow top with springs. I think? I’ve looked and looked and I don’t think they make it anymore and there isn’t a tag on it for some reason. It was getting older and I was ready to size up to a Cal King (tall hubby) so I went to a few mattress stores and decided that latex seemed like a good choice. The one with the highest latex content (6") was a “luxury firm” and I was told it would soften and I figured I could always get a softer topper if it was too hard. It is way way too firm to be comfortable/supportive and I wake up feeling stiff and sore. I’ve tried getting used to it, and tried a soft (20 ILD) 3" Sleep on Latex topper on it which I really thought would do the trick (still too hard!) and have finally decided that it absolutely has to go back. They will let me exchange it, luckily, but I can’t decide what I should get. I have tried various memory foam mattresses over the years and they really really don’t work for me. The store pretty much only has the big brands (Temp/Sterns and Foster, Beautyrest, etc) which almost all seem to have memory foam and after more research on your site I’m now also concerned that I will end up with a a fair sized investment in a mattress that is likely to break down quickly.
I’m about 5’6 115# side sleeper with a narrow waist and wide hips. Also have a former back injury that is much better but is still a bit fussy about mattresses. To sleep with good spinal alignment seems to take a soft bed that my hips can sink into that has enough “lift” to support my waist. I also strongly prefer a soft mattress from a comfort perspective. I think micro/nano coil or latex might be the best fit. I could get a different (softer) Englander Latex (“Emerald”) from them that is 3" of latex on top of some basic soy foam. My main concern with that is that it will break down quickly. I found the Sterns and Foster “Reserve” to be the most comfortable mattress they had at the store. For whatever that’s worth. No idea if it would be comfortable all night (a problem for me with memory foam) or stay comfortable for a reasonable amount of time. Pretty sure I don’t need anything that fancy.
The Englander rep suggested and is sending a “Waterfront” plush which is 10" of latex in a 14" mattress for me to try in-store. I’m hesitant about it because it apparently has a “lumbar support” area and that seems like something that could be really hit or miss and I’m not sure I would know just trying it in the store. They can’t get the Englander ForeverBeds here, no idea what those are like.
So anyway, I think I’m stuck getting a big brand and am a bit lost on which to choose. I’ve read ton on this site and spent hours trying mattresses. They won’t do a return, I’ve asked.

P.S. I didn’t forget about my hubby. He is about 6’3 and 220#. Back/side sleeper. He is happy to sleep on pretty much anything and doesn’t particularly care what I choose. He seems to have a slight preference for a softer mattress.

I’m sorry that this is so long! Any ideas would be very appreciated!

2

Hi teddy,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Better late than never – I’m glad you’ve found us!

I’m sorry your new Englander latex mattress isn’t working out well for you. While all foams will soften a bit over time (even latex), especially in the first few months of use, I wouldn’t be able to comment about this too much without knowing all of the componentry within your current mattress. Unfortunately, terms like “luxury firm” aren’t standardized and aren’t a good indicator of telling how one mattress will feel versus another (your own personal testing will be the best at that).

Adding a plush topper (and you chose a latex, which is a good quality material) is certainly a logical next step to see if you could make the mattress work, and changing the uppermost layers will result in the most dramatic change in perceptible comfort, but unfortunately this wasn’t enough to salvage your current configuration.

As I think you’re already well aware, the major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta all tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (along with the major retailers that focus on them as well) regardless of how they may feel in a showroom along with any mattress where you aren’t able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here).

Your thoughts about having good alignment with enough material to sink into seem to be logical and I think you are on a good track.

Without knowing the materials inside of the mattress you’re considering, I wouldn’t be able to provide any useful comments about the “Emerald” mattress.

Again, I wouldn’t be able to make any comments about this mattress as well without knowing the componentry inside of it. A “lumbar support” area could be something as simple as a zoned construction within the core of the mattress, which you may or may not be able to detect.

Being able to logically evaluate and compare mattresses depends on knowing the specifics of the construction and the type and quality of the materials inside of the mattress, so I would always make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase. Leaning about the componentry within the mattress is going to be the most important thing for you as you move forward. This is the only way to know for sure that you’re acquiring something using durable materials.

While I can certainly help with “how” to choose, it’s unfortunately not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress or combinations of materials or components, because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress. There are just too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved , and nothing is more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

I’m not sure what you’ve read since you just found the site, but the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for, and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

I’d do my best to find out all of the information about the layers within your current mattress and the one Waterfront, and that can be helpful in determining if the item might be worth your testing. The Englander models you’re mentioning seem, on the surface, to be using better quality materials than the other more “mainstream” brands you’re mentioning, but I wouldn’t be able to comment for you for sure without complete specifications. If you’re able to procure that information, post it back here in this thread and I’ll do my best to comment upon those specifications for you.

Phoenix

3

Hi Teddy, I am pretty much in the same boat right now. I ended up trying a 1.5" foam topper (not memory foam), a slightly firmish foam over the 19 idl talalay latex and that almost seems to do the trick. Maybe a 2" would be better or maybe a little softer but not one we would sink right through. This topper is from a friend so I don’t know much about it but I am happy something is helping. If I wasn’t concerned about money, I would try a 2" medium talalay egg crate/convoluted style topper from a store in my area that sells them online over the 19idl. http://www.organicmattressshop.com. A foam over the 3" 19idl topper you have should be perfect but I know if is rough buying a new mattress that isn’t working for you. I have had hip pain from everything I have tried lately, numb limbs and if I get it too soft, back pain, all very confusing, I assumed it is my age, circulation issues and weight but maybe it is more normal than I thought. I also have a 2" 5lb memory foam to try over the 3" 19idl I have. I am sure you can make it work with toppers but the mattress they want you to try seems worth trying as well. Either way, toppers can get it all perfect somehow. Goodluck! Valerie

4

Hi Valerie73,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

I appreciate your willingness to share your experience with your own issues trying to create a bit more comfort with your current mattress, but I would caution taking your own experiences and then applying those results to another member and assuming a level of success, as there are simply too many personal variables involved, as well as the differences in the mattresses being used, to be able to assume that “foam over a 3” 19 ILD topper will be perfect", or that “I am sure you can make I work with toppers”. While well-intentioned, providing commentary like this can often do more harm than good, as people will see this online and assume because someone has taken the time to write it then it must be so, when in fact nothing will be able to replace one’s own personal testing of different combinations.

While I tend to err on the side of caution with posts that seem to be a bit promotional (and yours does a little bit with the toppers and the link you provided), I’m going to keep the link because I think it is a good service you provided for those looking for a convoluted latex topper, as those are not very common.

Thanks for contributing! And good luck in making your mattress a bit more comfortable.

Phoenix

5

Thank you so much Phoenix for your detailed reply! I wrote back earlier but my message got eaten. Argh.

I’ve been looking for detailed specs on the mattresses available and have not been very successful. One Englander (Emerald) says it’s made of “3” Natural Dunlop Latex from the Rubber Tree" over a support layer of “high density soy based foam” with “natural fibers” on top. I couldn’t find the ILD on the latex or density of the base foam.

The Sterns and Foster mattresses have layers of “Advanced Adapt” foam, and what looks like a layer each of nano and micro coils, a bit of something called “PrimaSense” gel foam, and a base of coil in coil springs in individual pockets. I think the nano/micro coils are probably what made it feel supportive even though it has memory foam, which usually doesn’t feel supportive for me at all (especially after I’ve been in bed for awhile). I didn’t have much luck finding details about those specific types of foam. Maybe proprietary? Without more information is there any way to take a guess as to how durable these materials are? I realize it would probably just be a guess and in no way an effective or ideal way to evaluate components.

I’m pretty sure that the nice mattress sales lady things I’m crazy…

Thanks again!

6

Thank you for your suggestions! I’ve had the worst luck with messages disappearing after I try to submit them! I think I’m figuring it out though. This is take 2.
I’m so sorry that your mattress is causing you pain. I do think it’s probably more common then one might think. Thanks for the suggestion of the egg crate talalay latex, I don’t see that very often and will definitely check it out. I’m still hoping that I will be able to get at least a little closer to a suitable mattress, if only to serve as as a base for my potentially inevitable tower of toppers. :wink: The topper you suggest might be a great way to soften the 3" soft topper I have a tiny bit if I end up needing to go that route.
I hope you find your Goldilocks mattress configuration.
Thanks!

7

Hi -teddy-,

Sorry about that. It happens to me once in a while too.

You’d want to know the density of the polyfoam base to get an idea as to the durability it might have. The ILD of the latex won’t be as important, as I’m guessing you’ll have the opportunity to test out the item in the showroom before making a decision. The latex is the Dunlop process, and since you’re not comparing to other brands because of your specific situation, whether or not it is blended or all-natural won’t be as important (for comparison purposes), and it would be a high-quality material. The “natural fibers” is probably referring to either the material used in the ticking (covering), or maybe there is a layer of wool or silk or another natural fiber on top of the latex. You’d also want to make sure that you have an accounting of all of the layers within the mattress.

I’d refer you back to my earlier reply about the larger brands and their general use of lower quality foams, and without being provided the information about their density I would advise caution against any purchase like that. And no, the density of a foam isn’t proprietary information, regardless of the marketing term used to describe it.

No, you would want to know the density of the polyfoams and memory foams being used, as you can’t feel quality or durability when trying out a mattress, only initial comfort. The comfort layers tend to be the “weak links” in a mattress.

A consumer wanting to know what is inside of a mattress isn’t crazy at all. Selling people mattresses without telling them about such componentry is.

Phoenix

8

Update:

The Englander rep sent the Waterfront mattress for me to try and just it arrived at the store. They are giving me a trial period too, which is very nice because they said earlier they couldn’t.

Here’s what I found out. The list below is everything listed on the spec sheet. There wasn’t anything more specific that I could find.

Quilt:
Fiber
Hypersoft
Convoluted
1/2" lux-quilt

Support:
2" ultra plush latex
2" super soft foam
Latex lumbar
6" of 75 ILD latex
1 1/2" of high density foam

Total thickness: 14 1/2 inches

So, 8" of latex is nice but I’m concerned with the unknown quality of the 2" of super soft foam. I assume that this is poly. I’m also wondering, if add up the numbers I get 12 inches, which I think leaves me with 2 1/2 inches of some combination of the fiber, Hypersoft and convoluted foam in the quilt layer. Do you think either of these constitute a significant weak link in the mattress?

I see why the Englander guy chose this one to send me. The mattress I bought initially and even a softer one that I tried in a different store (Emerald) were too firm for my hips to sink in. It sounds like this one is pretty much the softest he has. Makes sense. I just really want to avoid getting a mattress that is comfy for the first few months and then breaks down and stops being comfortable/supportive.

Everyone is being nice but I really feel like they really think I’m being difficult which it not at all my intention.

Thank you so much for all your help. I’ve been reading tons on the site.

9

Hi -teddy-,

Thanks for your update. That’s nice that they are doing their best to accommodate you.

[quote]Here’s what I found out. The list below is everything listed on the spec sheet. There wasn’t anything more specific that I could find.
Quilt:
Fiber
Hypersoft
Convoluted
1/2" lux-quilt
Support:
2" ultra plush latex
2" super soft foam
Latex lumbar
6" of 75 ILD latex
1 1/2" of high density foam
Total thickness: 14 1/2 inches
So, 8" of latex is nice but I’m concerned with the unknown quality of the 2" of super soft foam. I assume that this is poly. I’m also wondering, if add up the numbers I get 12 inches, which I think leaves me with 2 1/2 inches of some combination of the fiber, Hypersoft and convoluted foam in the quilt layer. Do you think either of these constitute a significant weak link in the mattress?[/quote]

Yes, as you are already aware, they have provided little meaningful information about the product. While the latex would certainly be a better quality material, we know nothing about the polyfoam used in the quilt or beneath the latex core, or the thickness of the fiber in the quilt. Regarding the thickness, I’m guessing that there is a thickness measurement missing for the convoluted polyfoam in the quilt. That, combined with the fiber, might get you to the total finished thickness. But yes, it is always a concern when all of the layers don’t add up to something close to the finished thickness. But in your case, as you’re only options are to stay with this retailer, this product does seem to be a better fit than your other choices.

Unfortunately, you are in a situation where you are bound with limited choices with this one retailer. Most of the materials in this mattress are latex and higher quality, but we know nothing about the other foams.

I wouldn’t worry too much about what the people in the store think about your questions. It’s more a reflection upon their level of mattress knowledge than your desire to be educated about a product.

I’m glad the information here is helpful to you. I hope this mattress ends up being one that is comfortable for you.

Phoenix