memory foam over latex

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hello,

I’m sure others have done this combination so was hoping for some input about using memory foam over the top of latex. (don’t want to offend any latex lovers out there). I like the feel of memory foam but I’m not sure how this will react over the top of a latex comfort layer. Being that latex is somewhat ‘bouncy’ and memory foam is just the opposite, or if the resiliency of 3" layer of latex will be less noticeable under the memory foam. The bed I’m currently using is an innerspring, so I’m not opposed to a little ‘bounce’.

After looking at several inexpensive memory foam mattresses, my biggest concern is with the middle layers typically airflow/convoluted polyfoam breaking down prematurely causing sags or dips. Base foams rarely seem to be the issue. Latex looked promising since it has give but is more durable, as a better quality middle layer (think 3 layer: poly base, latex middle, memory foam top).

I came across something called NuRest “better than latex” material which claims to have properties similar to latex and has also been described as ‘synthetic latex’. Not sure if this is really the case, I have a feeling there’s a difference between springy 3.5lb density ‘non’ memory foam (ie, fast response memory/poly foam) and true synthetic latex. Still trying to pry answers from various vendors (best price mattress and night therapy) as to specs. They told me the ‘better than latex’ has an ild of 32-35 but they didn’t get back to me on the density. I believe it was 3.5lbs, which to me sounds like memory foam without the memory. Am I right to be concerned that in thicker layers (5" to 7") that it may be prone to early breakdown sagging?

Another option I was considering is a 10" latex mattress by Lucid which I saw in another post here with some skepticism on it. Lucid says it’s natural latex. One reviewer said after contacting Lucid they were told it was 65D which I take to be an overseas density measure comparable to 4lbs/ft3. This seemed to correlate with info from overseas suppliers. When I emailed Lucid, they got back to me and said it was 3lb density latex, with an ild of 26. Mind you they were also giving me specs for a couple other mattresses which contained 3lb density memory foam, so it may have been a typo (3lb density latex doesn’t sound right). If the ship info on amazon is in the ballpark for weight, factoring the dimensions of the 3" latex layer the remaining 7" base foam worked out to 2.3lbs density. Even considering the shipping weight not being exact, I would expect the base foam to be in the neighborhood of 1.8-2lbs density instead of the exact 2.3lbs.

As for memory foam, I’m considering a topper in the 3" range, more than likely 4lbs density. I’m no expert on the stuff, but as much as I wanted to go high density (more durable) it almost seems like the higher density has less “memory” response properties. I’ve seen videos from rocky mountain showing fxi’s basic 4 and 5 pound densities compared to aerus 4lb and sensus 5lb and it doesn’t look like much difference in response. In fact the aerus seemed to have a little less response and the 8lb venus just looked like cheap poly foam. I’ve seen that in another video too, showing sensus and venus vs slow recovery latex (awesome but way out of my price range) where the venus was crumpled in the hand and sprang right back. If I go with a separate topper and it wears out, it can be replaced separately rather than having it integral and rendering the entire mattress as failed.

Another posting on the forum discussed the 16" lucid with 4" of memory foam over 2" latex and I had concerns if the memory foam broke down that’s a lot of sagging along with only 2" of latex that’s liable not to offer much support - being too thin and too deep in the mattress to be useful. For roughly the same price or a little less, the 10" latex could be topped with 3" of 4lb memory foam and provide an extra inch of latex and the ability to replace just the topper if/when it gives out. Am I on the right track? I know memory foam has it’s longevity limits especially in lower densities, so that’s a given. Since I can’t afford a nicer more proven mattress, I’m just trying to sort out an inner layer that might be more durable and resistant to breakdown. Convoluted poly ‘comfort’ layers seem iffy. I’m not sure memory foam as a top layer over memory foam as a middle comfort/support layer works (mattresses with 2-3 stacked layers) since memory foam is made to compress and sink. Latex might offer a more durable middle layer vs convoluted, and the proprietary ‘synthetic’ latex seems iffy since I can’t seem to get the whole scoop on it. (worried it’s the same as weak poly foam and susceptible to sagging/softening and the only similarity to latex is that it has fast response).

If it helps any, I’m mostly a side/stomach sleeper. Not overly tall for a guy (5’6-5’7) and just under 200lbs. (side sleeping, exerting the most weight/pressure through the hips through the layers causes most durability concerns since i don’t sleep flat on my back with my weight spread out more evenly). To be honest, while I’m not sure I’m much smarter for all the research I’ve done before making a decision - trying to sort through all the variations and hoopla out there has caused me more lost sleep than my broke down innerspring. Life lesson learned. lol

2

Hi brass,

That’s a ton of amazing info. Your post reminds me of the level of detail I go into when researching things for myself. I’m not going to hit everything in this post, but will chip away at a few items.

For almost all of my answers, remember that your own personal testing will be the key point, and if you’ve not check out the tutorial post which will give some guidelines on how to test and evaluate for yourself.

Yes, there are people that enjoy memory foam over latex. So it’s a fine idea :slight_smile: there are also those that like latex over memory foam, and probably every other combination you can imagine.

You have identified several specifications, and as a broad brush review they all look fairly accurate and high quality. Unfortunately, they don’t really address how it will feel to you. I’ve experimented with a number of materials myself, albeit not really any memory foam, and beside using specifications to validate the quality and durability of a material, they’ve proved generally non-useful in designing a mattress. Maybe if I had more experience…

Memory foam is especially unhelpful to compare with specifications only, IMHO, because each type will behave differently - each formulation is unique, and between vendors proprietary. So as you’ve seen, the behaviors of various foams isn’t something that you can read a specification and know. Moreover, memory foam also behaves different based on pressure, temperature, so it’s tough to tell. I don’t believe that 4 lbs memory foam has less memory properties than higher densities, in fact I’d have guessed the 4 lbs a bit more a fast response, but again what you feel is all that would matter.

Ideally, you could find a vendor who has a shop where you could try all variety of things you’re considering. Seeing how things actually feel will probably allow you to narrow the search a ton.

Failing that, the “best” thing I did was just buy the things I wanted to try. It’s not for everyone, and has a cost for sure. Reading provided me specs on quality so I at least knew what I’d be testing - the rest was more or less iterative experimentation. Some things I felt would be phenomenal were terrible, and some things I felt would be crazy I loved.

Other notes, 65D represents 65 kg / m3 which is a density measurement. Those kind of measures are most commonly used with dunlop latex, as an incredibly rough and sometimes inaccurate indicator of softness (I have mostly dunlop, and I’ve found density a horrible measurement to predict softness). That said, in theory, with dunlop it’s something like
65 kg/m3 = soft
75 = med soft
85 = med to firm
95 = firm

The use of a topper is common, and as you’ve noted one potential benefit is that if it wears out, or you want to tune it, you can just change the topper. It’s also true that with many mattresses, especially if you custom build one, the mattress case itself is a zip case and you can open it and rearrange layers or replace them. Material in a topper to some people feels slightly different than the same material in the main mattress, for better or worse.

Edit: I too would one day enjoy trying the talalay GL slow response. It definitely looks interesting.

It sounds like you’re swimming in specs a bit, and when that happens to me the only way out is to actually try it out and evaluate for PPP.

3

Hi brass,

I think you seem have a good handle on the quality of different materials but this won’t help you at all with what a mattress will feel like which is based on PPP and your own personal testing and experience. In my experience (as well as many others including dn) … all the specs in the world really won’t help you choose a mattress unless you have some reference points that help you know what different types of combinations feel like for you.

I think dn said it best with …

Of course knowing the quality of the materials in a mattress is an important part of making an informed choice but it’s also secondary to how a mattress will feel and perform for you in terms of PPP and only your own testing and experience can help you predict this.

Sometimes getting overinvolved with mattress specs can lead to “paralysis by analysis” and I would tend to keep things a little more simple and experiential. Too much information or too little information can both end up leading to “less than ideal” choices because they only focus on one part of the picture to the exclusion of the rest.

The choice of materials and components in a mattress is really a preference issue and all types or materials and component combinations can work well for some people and they all have higher and lower quality versions.

If you follow the steps in the tutorial post one by one you will have much higher odds of success. I think that you certainly have a good understanding of step 1 and 2 and I would move to step 3 which is looking for some of the better retailers or manufacturers in your area so you can do some testing on some of the different combinations you have been considering on a more “theoretical” level.

Phoenix

4

I have one mattress with latex over latex and a nearly identical one with memory foam over latex.
While I currently like the Latex over Latex best I must reassure you that the memory foam over Latex is excellent.
I bought from Brooklyn Bedding without trying it first and I love them both but it was a risk and I knew I was taking it.
My only point was to say I have Memory foam over Latex and I like it.

Good Luck,
Jeff

5

I have a thread where I have some photos of the mattress Jefmoody is refering to → here

The only mattress that I was able to sample locally that would remotely come close in feel to the Aloe Alexis (Memory Foam over Latex) would be the Tempurpedic Weightless Supreme. By no means are the two even in the same same class. The Aloe Alexis ($1499) made by Brooklyn Bedding is far more superior in its quality vs the Weightless Supreme by Tempurpedic ($2399). Im sure if the Tempurpedic was to use the same materials in thier mattress the price margin would be far greater.

All in all the closet in feel was the Weightless Supreme…

6

Thanks to both of you folks for the quick response! I agree specs can be overload and confusing. Felt it was somewhat helpful that Lucid told me the 3" of their latex was 28ild (roughly in the soft to medium range), so I can figure it’s at least middle ground. Not so ridiculously soft that it will lack support (like 12 ild), or overly firm (40ild). Overall I’m not too terribly picky thankfully. I’ve slept on waterbeds, innersprings, futons, the couch lol. The only plus I really saw to the ‘better than latex’ which I’ve seen referred to by the company as both ‘synthetic latex’ and ‘quick response memory foam’ is its low cost. A 10" mattress with 5" poly base and 5" of the mystery material in question can be had for $200 (usd). More than a fear of getting the feel absolutely perfect, I’m worried about a mattress that starts out feeling pretty good and within 6mo has broken down leaving me right back where I started.

The other option I was considering was a 6" 36ild poly base, 3" 20 ild latex from FBM taking into account the past inconsistencies people have had with their latex. For people who know exactly what they desire, it can be a gamble. Since I’m not as picky (and don’t know what i’m missing getting 22ild instead of 28ild) it might be an ok option. Might even try that as is and see how sleeping on the latex feels before adding a memory foam layer.

dn, you mentioned some materials can feel differently as a topper vs an integral layer? That’s interesting and something I’ve wondered myself. When I think of ‘topper’ in general it sounds somewhat disposable like those old egg crate things. I’ve never experienced a substantial topper and wasn’t sure if being designated as an add on would make it differ. If ‘topper’ meant it was automatically lighter weight, temporary - or if memory foam is memory foam, whether it’s 3" of 4lb density sold as a topper or stuffed inside of a pre made mattress (provided it was the same manufacturer, apples to apples). When it comes to memory foam my only personal experience has been with a few minutes on a Tempur some 11yrs ago, with a 3" 3lb density layer on top of a cheaper SpaSensations and what I’m sure is some quite cheap low density memory foam in a pillow from Walmart I paid like $25 for. All seem to feel good to me, all provided the ‘hand print’ effect. The least memory effect I’ve found is my pillow, and while it doesn’t ‘hold’ the hand print very long it does have a slow return. I’m thinking it’s kind of like a case of the unwitting wine drinker who thinks the cheap stuff tastes pretty good and couldn’t pick a ‘fine wine’ out of a lineup lol.

I’d love to go into various stores and test drive, but most mattress places are quite a distance from me. I’m out in the boondocks a bit where walmart ends up being our catch all. The last mattress I bought was a Stearns and Foster RoseStar pillowtop I believe. I was too far for delivery, transporting it was a pain (strapped to the roof of a small car). Long story short, after sitting and laying on just about every brand and style of mattress in the store, it felt incredible. Got a good ‘deal’ on it and after the first few weeks the pillowtop tufting began failing in spots. It got lumpy, and it just got worse from there. Steadily packing down despite rotating, and now has a deep valley where I sleep (all be it 11yrs later). Most people would have tossed it after a couple of years but I couldn’t afford to so I ‘dealt’ with it. Now it sags a good 2" (I checked using a yardstick across the top and measuring with a tape measure).

For those who may not know maybe this will put it into better perspective, many warranties don’t begin to kick in until there’s 1.5" of sag. Sounds harmless enough, but it’s far more than cosmetic. In my case, 1.5" to 2" of sag in spots equates to 5-6" of deep sagging under weight.

In the end testing mattresses in stores might help narrow down a feel so it can be very helpful. The 15-20min of sitting or lying on one doesn’t give much of a true indication though and like I learned for myself even if a mattress feels supportive and fantastic - it doesn’t hold much value if it quickly fatigues. I thought I had the best bed ever…for about 6mo. That’s why I think I’ve allowed myself to dig so deeply and try to understand and plan out options which will (hopefully) indicate better longevity. I’d rather have a bed that feels ‘pretty good’ and stays that way for at least a few years than one that feels ‘fantastic’ for a few months then leaves me feeling like I’ve wasted my time and money in such a short time.

7

Hi brass,

It’s not only their ILD that may be inconsistent but the type of latex they supply is also not likely to be what they advertise (see post #2 here and post #2 here).

What many people call “virtual impressions” which is actually loss of ILD (vs loss of height) is the main reason that people need to replace a mattress when it loses comfort or support and as you mentioned is the reason that knowing the quality of the materials in a mattress is much more important than the length of a warranty (see post #174 here)

This is where more objective methods of testing (using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) can be very helpful and much more predictive of how a mattress will feel when you sleep on it than testing for “showroom feel”. As you know, this is also why it’s so important to make sure that the comfort layers especially are good quality and durable materials regardless of the type of materials you tend to prefer.

I’m don’t know where you live but if you let me know your city or zip code I’d be happy to let you know or any of the better options or possibilities I’m aware of that may be reasonably close to you.

Phoenix

8

Hi brass,

With regard to ‘toppers’ there is remarkably little different between a topper and the mattress. Except for the fact they tend to be softer materials (I.e. You’re not putting a support layer on the top), it’s the same stuff. So by example, a topper with a 19 ild talalay 3" layer contains the identical material as a mattress which contains a 19 ild 3" layer of talalay. In terms of raw slabs of latex, they are identical. The material (ticking) used for the topper is also largely the same as a mattress, with some being basic cotton, and others being more elaborate with wool quilted in.

So using the same example, where are the differences between a mattress that has a 19 ild talalay layer and a topper with that identical layer?

  1. The material holding the topper may be different than the material holding the mattress, so that’d cause a difference in feel.
  2. The topper may be able to flex and move more independently than if it’s put into a case with several other layers.
  3. It could be poor testing methodologies too, since people almost never literally compare 2 absolutely identical mattresses that vary only by a single layer being inside or outside of the mattress as part of a topper.

Basically, a topper is just another layer in the mattress used to fine tune how it feels. In terms of materials and costs, they’re the same.

9

Thanks jefmoody, good to hear from someone about the memory foam over latex. Understandably latex has more than enough ‘give’ to be comfy, was just trying to picture the conflict between two materials that are total opposites - highly resilient and completely ‘deadened’ working well together.

TandL, thanks for the link. A bit out of my budget, but very nice bed. Congrats, it looks awesome and comfy. No wonder she doesn’t want to get out of it lol. I’m curious though, what was that along the partial center support of that one slatted frame? Either i’m seeing it wrong, or it appeared to be a small basket hanging there? I’ve seen similar bed construction offering the slats with the arches in them like that. I’m sure being thin and bowed they offer a little spring to everything. I’m considering building my own and foregoing the spring approach for thicker more solid slats (1x4’s). Maybe if they flex enough, place the center support (2x4 on edge) a tad higher than the attachment rails along the sides to arch it ever so slightly. Without it being flexible, don’t want to create a hard hill in the center either, so maybe just flat is the best.

10

Phoenix, I’m about 60mi south of St. Louis. Far as I know they have your typical mattress stores, the one I went to was called the mattress firm which I think has been taken over by us-mattress. Or there’s sears, kohl’s etc, regular furniture stores like ashley’s furniture and the bedroom store.

Thank you dn, so roughly they’re the same as I’d hoped. I’ve seen some really great ticking out there if it was within my budget. By the time I went that route, plus a waterproof cover to protect it, thats another easy $300. (I’m a frequent coffee drinker and not always the most graceful lol). For now I’ve been checking out some waterproof encasements (seems the ones with zippers are marketed more as dustmite/bedbug solutions). Something breathable, not vinyl. It’s a bit thinner than I’d like, but hopefully would serve to hold a slab of memory foam in place, or hold the layers together if I got separate ones from say FBM. Something like http://www.mattresssafe.com/Sofcover-Superior-Mattress-Encasement-p/sc-su.htm .

11

Hi brass,

Some of the better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the general area are listed in post #6 here but I don’t know if any of these are in reasonable driving distance from you. This thread also has some feedback from one of the members in the area.

Phoenix

12

Hi brass,

It sounds like you’re trying to make a mattress on a more conservative budget. I’d make sure to check out some of the members of this site… I know for sure that members Dream Foam, Tuft and Needle, and Spindle have some options for the conservative budget, and I’d guess other members do too. If I’m wrong, feel free to ignore this post :slight_smile:

13

[quote=“brass” post=31787]
TandL, thanks for the link. A bit out of my budget, but very nice bed. Congrats, it looks awesome and comfy. No wonder she doesn’t want to get out of it lol. I’m curious though, what was that along the partial center support of that one slatted frame? Either i’m seeing it wrong, or it appeared to be a small basket hanging there? I’ve seen similar bed construction offering the slats with the arches in them like that. I’m sure being thin and bowed they offer a little spring to everything. I’m considering building my own and foregoing the spring approach for thicker more solid slats (1x4’s). Maybe if they flex enough, place the center support (2x4 on edge) a tad higher than the attachment rails along the sides to arch it ever so slightly. Without it being flexible, don’t want to create a hard hill in the center either, so maybe just flat is the best.[/quote]

Thats a shower caddy…the bed broke while I was at work. The center leg slid out from underneth the cross member and caused it to split and brake so, being crafty, she found a shower caddy that was the exact height and slid it under the cross member to support it. Worked well considering when i got home to look at it and try to repair it the bed looked even and there was nothing available that would work better short of replacing the entire frame.

14

lol, that’s great. Glad to see I’m not the only macguyver around. Actually I think I’m less macguyver, more red-green show haha. I wasn’t sure, it almost looked like it was hanging and maybe had something in it for weight, like fine tune adjusting the level of the slats similar to those adjuster bars for tensioning. You guys have a great looking mattress. Maybe one of these days when my budget’s not so tight… that thing looks comfy.