Thanks for sharing your comments and feedback … I appreciate it.
I don’t know what the actual shipping costs would be but there are some suggestions here that can help you vacuum pack the layer so that the shipping costs would be less.
Phoenix[/quote]
Thanks … If i ship it back i will look into the vacuum packing. I have a message out to Valerie at Mattresses247 about shipping costs.
But maybe its to my advantage to skip the shipping and just do option #2 above? What do u think.
A few hours ago, Valerie from Mattresses247 wrote me a response to my question about trying a 2" topper in the 15 ILD range rather than having her ship me 2 half un seamed cal king comfort layers to replace my current solid layer.
Her suggestion:
"I was just in paypal preparing an invoice for you when your email came in…I had to go back in my records first and find the prior shipping charge which was $63.
After reading your email and pondering the information the past hour or so…I think the best bet is to go with the first plan and change out the soft layer to unglued. That way you have the right surface inside your mattress.
While I originally thought even a thick mattress pad would prevent you from feeling the seam you’re suggestion of a 15 ILD doesn’t sound that good to me. A 14 ILD is pillow latex, lots of air which means with only two inches and at 15 ILD (not knowing your weight) that ILD is too little to perform the task you want it to. I think you’d have to be at more like an 18-19 ILD."
So I am going to have her ship the 2 half cal king comfort layers unglued and try that.
Looks like it will cost me about $130 in shipping totals coming and going. So that would be about half the cost of the best price I could find for a 2" topper. So it seems the best place to start. And then if I want softer later I can add a topper of my choice.
I really cannot say enough about how GREAT Mattresses247 has been to work with. Anyone hesitating about dealing with them because they are largely an eBay seller and online should really not sweat it and go ahead and pull the trigger.
I would have said to get the unglued pieces as well. I don’t have mattress knowledge, but I just feel like your plan of having the seams offset wouldn’t work like you pictured. If anything I think you would feel multiple bumps.
I think this is my overall fear: what happens in a few weeks if I don’t feel comfortable and/or latex starts of sag or something else…
After sleeping on springs all my life. one can predict their comfort/performance. Not so with latex and shipping back and fourth can get very costly very fast.
Thanks for such detailed journal. Some of it may read as extra picky or whatever, but not to me. This is exactly what I would go through in my mind.
I have a little bit of “catching up” to do with this topic
[quote]So lets talk seams … Regardless of what you read or are told by a salesman, especially if you are a “Princess and the Pea” type personality (and admittedly I am) … You WILL FEEL A GLUED SEAM in the comfort layer of a cal king bed.
If you purchase a cal king (and i would guess a king too) and it is not split into 2 parts at each layer … In other words the comfort layer is 1 continuous piece … If purchased from Mattressses247 There will be a glue seam off center of the bed. I was told talalay latex is not manufactured in a cal king width so it has to be glue seam constructed. If i recall my discussion with Mattresses247 correctly, they take 2 extra long/large twins and cut off enough from one of them to make the width a cal king. Then using the pieces cut off, they use those pieces to add the 4" of extra length to make a cal king … Gluing all the pieces together. So u will have 2 seams. One offset/ off center down the middle and One 4 inches off the bottom or top depending on your rotation.
I have no idea if this is true, but it has been my experience. The way Mattresses247 explained it to me, when they glue a seam, the glue used will seep in about 2 inches or so either side of the seam and that this is part of the bonding of seam for talalay latex. I did do tests of just the 3" soft glued comfort layer laid out in my living room floor. Taking an 8 pound dumb bell, a 4 foot level and measuring tape, when I placed the dumbbell where we each sleep … The dumbbell sunk in exactly 1/2 of an inch more where our bodies lay than it did on the seam. AND this was consistent from top to bottom along the seam so it does not appear to be just brake in. The seam IS MORE FIRM…!!! There will be a 4-5" patch down the off center of the bed that is (for me) noticeably more firm. It gives me the sensation of laying on a small hump in the off center middle of the bed.
I do not think this is a fault of mattresses247 … Just the nature of seamed latex … But i could be wrong.[/quote]
When a manufacturer glues a seam it is generally glued with the full 6" core and then the layers are slit afterwards so they are glued on the sides not on the top. In the large majority of cases the glue seam is undetectable but on occasion they can use too much glue or overspray or otherwise do a sloppy job with gluing or in some cases with a king size they may not do the best job in “matching” one twin XL to the other and there could be a slight difference in firmness between each side that may be noticeable. If there is a layer in a mattress where the glue seam is as noticeable as your experience seems to indicate then I would consider it to be defective rather than being a “normal” experience because a glue seam is something that you “shouldn’t” be able to feel.
[quote]Here is where I need help and suggestions. I am visibly seeing body impressions where we lay when the bed is assembled… These are not getting any worse over the past 20 days and noticed them in the first week we had the bed. But I CANNOT visibly see the body impressions when the comfort layer is laid out in the floor by itself. Yet the seam is verifiably more firm when laid on the floor. Oddly all the other pieces are level and consistent by themselves. I have tried various rotations with the comfort layer … And the “Rise” is the seam. It switches sides of the bed when i rotate (the seam is off center)
Here’s the problem … when i lay across the bed at a 45* angle, with part of me on one side and sinking in … and the lower part of my legs on the other side not sinking in as much, the seam intersects my legs just between my hips and my knees when laying on my side … And everything from the knees down kinda floats just above the layer not sinking in because of the firmness of the seam. When laying on my side … This causes knee pain.[/quote]
I’m not sure why there are visible impressions that you can see on the mattress that aren’t visible when you lay the layers on the floor but it could be connected to the seam that is firmer (which could be “raised” a little). It could also be connected to your cover if you have a quilted cover which can compress in the areas that you sleep faster than the areas that aren’t used as much and it could also be connected to the support system under the mattress because a “dip” in the support system or areas of the foundation that are more flexible than others can “travel through” the mattress and this is a possibility with the foundation that you have which has flexible slats with two center support beams that are rigid.
If you are feeling the seam that much then it’s also quite possible or even “likely” that you would still feel it to some degree “through” a very soft 2" 15 ILD topper because you could still be compressing the layer below the topper enough to feel it but I don’t know if it would be enough to modify the feel of the ridge “enough” that you don’t feel it at all. The topper also shouldn’t have a noticeable “seam” that you can feel.
I would tend to sleep on the combination that is closest to your ideal (and if they are close then on the firmer of the two configurations) for a few weeks so that the mattress has a chance to break in and you have a chance to adjust to the feel of a new mattress. You may also find that a rigid foundation may “firm up” the softer of the two combinations so it was more suitable for you (you could test this on the floor). There are also some suggestions in post #2 here that may be helpful with a new mattress that is too firm.
If none of the other suggestions work well to get to your “ideal” layering then after a month or so (which I think has already passed) then I would consider adding a softer topper to “fine tune” the mattress a little more. If you do decide to go in this direction then post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to can help you use your sleeping experience to help you choose the thickness and firmness of the topper that would have the best chance of success. It also includes a link to the better sources for raw latex layers or latex toppers that I’m aware of in any thickness or firmness that you would prefer.
I hope I’ve covered all your questions but if I’ve missed any in my reading let me know
[quote=“ceasar2k6” post=44424]I think this is my overall fear: what happens in a few weeks if I don’t feel comfortable and/or latex starts of sag or something else…
After sleeping on springs all my life. one can predict their comfort/performance. Not so with latex and shipping back and fourth can get very costly very fast.
Thanks for such detailed journal. Some of it may read as extra picky or whatever, but not to me. This is exactly what I would go through in my mind.[/quote]
To me modern springs are unacceptable and unpredictable. One regional chain store actually says u should replace your bed every 7 years. I went thru 2 of their spring sets in less time. My bed before that was a 2nd hand Sealy that when i finally upgraded was well over 10 years old and was still in great shape … They just don’t make inner springs like they use to.
Latex for me so far has been more or less like springs with much better consistency across the sleeping surface. I have ever reason to believe it will last a long time. But the main reason i like it is that i can open it up and customize it. Plus for what i paid on eBay … I could do a LOT of shipping back and forth and still not be close to what i would have paid in the store.
Keep in mind also, that even though i may have seemed somewhat negative about my experience … This bed even with the slight glitches i have gone to length to explain … This bed sleeps worlds better than my 5 year old spring had been sleeping for the past 3 years … Yeah … Do the math. It was livable for about 2 years before we started really hating it. Waking up miserable, etc.
I must say my over all experience is very favorable. I was just seeking bed Nirvana … And actually am just a few tweaks from actually getting there. Very close as it stands right now.
Some where early on in my latex sleeping experience i note (somewhere in this thread … Like after the first week) … I noted i thought my wife had stopped snoring . Well as it turns out … I actually think she has. We ate now nearly 2 months into our sleeping experience and she had indeed nearly stopped snoring … Perfect PPP for her on latex? Maybe!
For the sake of Clarity and Understanding … this is what I mean when I am describing “Body Impressions”. The rise off center (furthest away in the picture) IS the location of the Seam. But you can also see in the pic the body impressions where we lay. The stitching in the comforter makes it more visible.
While they are a little unclear … I can see what I think is the ridge you are talking about but it seems to be towards the head of your mattress and going across the mattress rather than from head to foot off center. Am I seeing this correctly?
I can also clearly see what looks like sagging and this certainly isn’t the norm for a latex mattress that is so new.
I would be interested in whether you can isolate the source of the sagging (which didn’t seem to be happening with the individual layers on the floor so the reason for the sagging is somewhat of a mystery to me) or in whether your new split layers solve the issues you are having.
Well after 7 months I could not be happier with this Latex Bed. Mattresses247 was a joy to work with and did everything they could to resolve any (real or perceived) sag / seam issue we had back in October.
In November we agreed Mattresses247 would ship me a new top layer that was in 2 parts not glued prepaid. And I would return the solid glued seam soft upper layer and replace it with a split soft layer. Return was hassle free. I just the packing method linked earlier here in this thread once the new layer arrived. Mattresses247 immediately refunded my credit card less shipping once the old top was received.
Our replacement 2 part top arrived early November and has been perfect ever since. After 4 months there is no noticeable “sag” in the top and the seam has disappeared.
Let me say … for me, I could feel and find my glued seam even though I am told you are not suppose to be able to feel it. So I would not recommend it but would rather select a split top for 2 reasons:
the already mentioned seam and
if one side fails you only have to replace half the top not the whole top.
Again for me, going with the split is the way to go, just feels more consistent across the bed surface.
About the Bed: It is a Cal King, and I created a modified very solid all wood top foundation (see previous posts for pics). The Cal King consists of 3 layers, each split in 2 parts. The Medium and Firm layer are each 3"s glued together to form a 6" base. They can be flipped for desired comfort. Both Medium / Firm parts are enclosed in a nice cover that then fits inside the Bamboo zipper cover. The top is a soft split 3" layer that is uncovered and goes inside the Zipper cover.
The only draw back to the Medium / Firm being joined is that you could not have say a medium or firm on top … unless you put your Soft on the bottom. I would think the slats of the foundation might be hard on the soft topper if it was on the bottom and would not be an ideal configuration. So in this bed, the combo you could not have is a Firm / Soft / Medium or a Medium / Soft / Firm set up from bottom to top … But the Medium / Firm can be flipped for either sleepers side so that the bed can be some what customized.
At the end of the day, I think the Full Latex bed is the way to go for us. I still believe we got the best price out there for a full 9" Talalay Cal King bed and I could not be happier with the bed. PPP is perfect for me and the wife. Support is very nice and Latex (unlike memory and other foams IMO) is “springy” so you do not sacrifice the feel of an inner spring as much as other foams might. Wife no longer complains of shoulder pain. The only observation I would make is that in a bottom to top Firm / Medium / Soft set up … you will Not sleep in the bed (sinking in) but rather on the bed. I may in the near future want a little more sinking in feel and may purchase a 2" super soft topper … that is a personal preference … but in general … The support is great, turning over is effortless, I sleep soundly and wake up refreshed after 7 months. Best bed we have ever had.
So Yes … after 7 months I could recommend both a latex bed for us and Mattresses247 to anyone seeking a Latex bed.
So I am guessing I need to test this pretty quickly and then find out what constitutes defective.
update
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Not sure I follow. Are you saying you purchased a Mattresses247 bed and “might” have a problem? My impression from them was they wanted the buyer to be happy. I think they would have replaced the top … problem or not. I am not even sure there was a problem … I just did not like the seam and it appeared to me to be prematurely aging. My replacement top is flawless.
But yes … they give you 30 days (I think) … I called/contacted on like the 29th day after delivery. They worked with me completely after that for another 6 weeks of trouble shooting and replacement.
Great thread and feedback, MrM1. However I am a bit confused, to be honest.
Why would someone who claims “PPP is perfect” and that they “sleep soundly and wake up refreshed” want to change the mattress so that they sink in more?
Fair Question. My old mattress was an S Brand inner spring with a private label name so you that you can never “price match” if you find the “Same” mattress at a lower price (a scam in and of itself). It began to fail after about 6 months. We lived with it and its deteriorating condition for another 6 years, topping it with a 4" piece of memory foam its last 2 years of usefulness.
I am a side sleeper … sleeping with the top leg out front and bent, the bottom leg on its side and straight. In the Foam / Inner spring combo, sleeping like this would cause my rib cage and hip bone to be pressed together so I could not stay in that position for very long. So I would end up sleeping more rolled toward my back … not ideal for me.
When we got the latex bed that all changed. My hip would no longer sink deep into the bed and my spine was straight while laying on my side (yes we checked it with a 4’ level in both beds. Curved in the spring / Straight on the latex). So I began several months of blissful side sleeping. Until a few months ago I started noticing my right knee (the knee of my dominant lower straight leg) was sore all the time. So I began to wonder why … and recently I discovered that my perfect sleeping position was now part of the problem. I liked it so much, that involuntarily I began rolling more and more toward my stomach, extending my upper leg further and further out. All good … except … now my lower leg is not on its side, but rather nearly upside down with the top of my knee in the mattress. By not “sinking in” the bed … this was causing my ankle and foot to be nearly unsupported and thus undue pressure was being applied to my knee as thru the night my leg stayed bent in the wrong direction because of the unsupported weight of the ankle/foot … over extending the knee.
My thinking is … if I get a little more “sink in” … i can stay in the position I like, and my knee will sink in allowing support to my foot/ankle and stop the weight of the 2 from pulling my knee in the wrong direction.
