Naturepedic Queen Split Configuration - Layer Swap Help Please

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
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Hello!

I’ve been reading, reading and reading and lurking to learn as much as possible. Thank you in advance for this great community and all the educational resources.

This is a long post. Questions are toward the bottom.

Background - Spindle Latex Mattress
In 2018 we bought a Spindle latex mattress with a (bottom to top) Firm/Medium/Medium configuration. This was based on my husband’s height and weight (6ft, 215lbs). I am 5’4, 113lbs. It turned out to be uncomfortable for me at first and then in the last few years downright unbearable for me to sleep on. To deal with what I thought was the mattress being too firm, we bought a 3-inch memory foam topper. It didn’t help me but my husband slept fine.

Progressively, each time I slept on the Spindle mattress, I would wake with an extremely painful lower back and hip. So, I moved over to an old Stearns and Foster innerspring mattress (20+ years old and not used much) in our guest bedroom with an eggshell 3-inch foam topper (boy did that one off-gas for a while!) and that turned out to be OK. At least it minimized the pain dramatically though I would still wake up with some.

We are also an older couple me (50s) and hubs (60s).

Recent purchase - Naturepedic EOS Classic - Latex Free
The reason we ended up at Naturepedic is I wanted to “fix” the Spindle mattress. Initially we thought to buy microcoil comfort layers to put on top of the latex but decided to get a new mattress. So, we got rid of the S&F mattress and boxspring, moved the Spindle latex to the guest bedroom and at some point we still need to figure out how to “fix” that Spindle for our guests. But for our main bedroom, we purchased the Naturepedic EOS Classic with a split configuration with microcoils in the comfort layer instead of latex based on some threads about latex, back pain and lightweight/petite sleepers.

Our current configuration & original in-store preference
Hubs side
Naturepedic “Plush”: Plush 8-inch coils (base) / 3-inch Plush microcoils (comfort)

Me
Naturepedic Medium: Plush 8-inch coils (base) / 3-inch Medium microcoils (comfort)

Sleep style
We are both primarily back sleepers. We will start out or shift through the night to side sleeping but we end up on our backs.

He woke up with lower back pain and I was in pain again though not as bad as the latex. So we swapped places and did better. His lower back pain still exists but not as bad with the Plush (base) / Medium (comfort) configuration. Mine was better on the Plush (base) / Plush (comfort) as well but still in pain just not as bad.

Swap Questions
We went wit this split/swap layer system because of our experience with the Spindle mattress was quite the investment and five years later I cannot sleep on it. We are nearing the 30 days mark and I want to be more intentional and strategic about the layer swap instead of just feeling it out multiple times. The shipping of each layer and swap adds up!

I did some research on Naturepedic configurations for the EOS Classic without latex and found this:

  • Extra Firm – Firm 3" Latex Layer over Firm 8" Coils
  • Firm – Medium 3" Latex Layer over Firm 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Firm - Medium 3" Microcoil over Firm 8" Coils
  • Cushion Firm - Soft 3" Latex Layer over Firm 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Cushion Firm - Soft 3" Microcoil over Firm 8" Coils
  • Medium - Medium 3" Latex Layer over Plush 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Medium - Medium 3" Microcoil over Plush 8" Coils
  • Plush – Soft 3" Latex Layer over Plush 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Plush - Soft 3" Microcoil over Plush 8" Coils

Layer Swap Questions:

  1. Given my husband’s height and weight, would a “Cushion Firm” make more sense for him? He loved the Plush configuration in the store but now prefers the Medium because it doesn’t hurt his lower back as much.

  2. Would a latex comfort layer be better for him and if so, a Soft or Medium?

  3. For me, I’m wondering if the 3-inches of comfort layer is too much? Would it make sense for me to also go with “cushion firm” and then add a 1-inch wool or latex topper? If latex, soft or medium? I read in a thread that for petite sleepers too thick a comfort layer isn’t really needed. Note: I did try a 3-inch wool topper over our medium microcoils configuration (plush base + medium comfort) and my back and hip did not like that one bit.

  4. Should we “upgrade” to get more layers? Naturepedic has a Pillowtop that has 8-inches coils (base) + 3-inches latex (or microcoils + 3-inches latex (or micrcoils). I’m not convinced adding more layers will help but just in case, posting these details for the EOS pillowtop:

  • Ultra Plush - 3" Soft Latex Over 3" Soft Latex, with Plush 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Ultra Plush - 3" Soft Microcoils over 3" Soft Microcoils with Plush 8" Coils.
  • Plush - 3" Soft Latex Over 3" Medium Latex, with Plush 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Plush - 3" Soft Microcoils over 3" Medium Microcoils with Plush 8" Coils
  • Medium - 3" Soft Latex Over 3" Medium Latex, with Firm 8" Coils
  • Cushion Firm - 3" Soft Latex Over 3" Firm Latex, with Firm 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Cushion Firm - 3" Soft Microcoils over 3" Medium Microcoils, with Firm 8" Coils
  • Firm - 3" Medium Latex Over 3" Firm Latex, with Firm 8" Coils
  • Latex Free Firm - 3" Medium Microcoils over 3" Medium Microcoils, with Firm 8" Coils

I’m trying to work with what is available but I feel like Goldilocks searching for her “just right”. My hubs isn’t as sensitive as he used to sleep anywhere anytime!

Notes:

  • I went with microcoils because of what I felt like a bad experience with latex (dunlop). Naturepedic uses Dunlop as well since I guess Talalay can’t be labeled organic. The organic part doesn’t matter to me as long as there isn’t any off-gassing as I’m sensitive to even being in Home Depot for 5 minutes.

  • With covid I slept on our Room & Board sofa which is probably medium in firmness. Not hard and not soft so somewhere in between. With the 3-inch wool topper, I woke with pain. Without it, I had less pain. I woke with about the same level of discomfort as the Stearns and Foster + Eggshell foam configuration before we got rid of that mattress. So, it is clear to me that 3-inches of a topper is too much for me.

  • I sleep very well in hotel rooms fwiw.

Thanks again for reading and for any recommendations.

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Good morning Miss_Nose,

I will take a peek at this tonight, unless someone else chimes in sooner. I moved you to ask the expert section because our trusted member expert @TheCleanBedroom is an expert with the Naturepedic line and may have a faster answer for you.
Thank you for being patient,
Norm

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Hello, Miss_Nose, and welcome!
I am going to get some input from our store staff to help answer your questions. It may be good for you to get on a phone call directly with them in order to help.

With the Naturepedic pillowtop, it is engineered into the mattress with its own zippered compartment. So it is separate, but connected if that makes sense. It isn’t something you could add later. It is a latex layer in the original, but I believe you can swap out coils.

Thanks,
Katie

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With the Naturepedic pillowtop, it is engineered into the mattress with its own zippered compartment. So it is separate, but connected if that makes sense. It isn’t something you could add later. It is a latex layer in the original, but I believe you can swap out coils.

Hi Katie -

re: pillow top. will that help with whatever is going on to cause the low back and hip pain? I’m trying to suss out if the 2-layers of the Classic is enough for me or if I need more layers? I was thinking I don’t need more layers but there’s probably some support/pressure science to all these layers that I don’t fully understand.

The Plush configuration (EOS Classic) was better than the Medium config but still causes pain/discomfort when I am on my back. For my husband, the Medium config is better than the Plush config but still causes pain/discomfort. So swapping sides helped us both but now mystified on what to try next.

So, for my husband, I’m thinking:

  • Cushion Firm configuration might be better for my husband since he is heavier. (6ft, 215lbs).

For me (5’4, 113lbs), I feel like i’m stuck on what to do.

  • The Medium configuration caused me more pain than the Plush.
  • I even tried a 3-inch wool topper on top of the Medium configuration and that made things worse.
  • So the Plush configuration is so far the winner but still causes pain…

I’m super confused now because a 3-inch topper on a firmer base mattress made my pain worse. But the softer base mattress felt better though still causing pain.

Go with more layers? Go more firm with a thinner topper?

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With so many causes of back pain (especially low back) and hip pain - it is hard to say what will help. Often, people find that firmer is better (which would leave out the pillow top) but it is pretty personal depending on each person’s sleeping position, etc. I mentioned the pillowtop only because you had mentioned it in your post.

A wool topper would feel a bit different than a latex one. The latex would have more give than the wool - perhaps that is what you need? My sense would also be that cushion firm might work for your husband, just as you said, - or it might be too soft - the mattress may sink more if it is a more plush mattress, causing a misalignment and pain.

The pain could be caused by misalignment (too soft, so the body sinks more in some parts than others) or by not enough ‘give’ (often in shoulders and hips).
Trying different pillows can also help, as well as a pillow between the knees for side sleepers or under the knees for back sleepers.
I don’t know if that helps or muddies the waters! I would strongly recommend a phone call to us or Naturepedic, and a staff member could help you. I know it is a lot of time, but a 20-minute phone call could be pretty helpful since this is such a big decision. Also, do you have any place near you to try those layers?

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I reached out to Clean Bedroom and because I had purchased direct from Naturpedic the person recommended I contact them. Not sure how helpful they will be and I’ll reach out tomorrow. I’ll see about a local place. Thank you.

I guess I’m trying to understand more about the logic (?) behind layering and the relationship between support, pressure points and pain? I do understand the concept that if I am a side sleeper, my shoulders and hips need a more soft comfort layer but enough support so those parts of the body don’t sink too much.

I’m more of a back sleeper, so why is the Plush configuration better to me than the Medium configuration but still causing pain? Is it because the comfort layer is too thick? Maybe trying out the Medium configuration again with a 1-inch topper instead of a 3-inch one would work better? I do sleep with a pillow under my legs or between them.

The Cushion Firm, in the order it is listed above, is “more firm” than the Medium configuration. So for my husband, this makes sense to me conceptually. Who knows in reality but at least it gives us a direction to move toward for him.

Anyway, my goal is to get a better understanding of how this all works with something concrete (our current mattress and options) versus the abstract. I just want to sleep well not looking for a spa or luxury experience.

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Hi Again Miss_Nose,

I am a sorry you did not get the attention I was hoping for. TCB are always responsive and helpful. Naturally, it is understandable that they do not want to get caught in a contradiction of sorts with what the manufacturer might say or have said when you dealt directly with them.

Honestly, it can be dizzying with all the configurations that they offer. I don’t approach it in that way. Talking about every option that is offered does not get to the root of the problem or the ultimate solution.
As a back sleeper, most folks would prefer a firmer flat surface to sleep on. Ok, everyone is different (I have to say that, but it is true) and everyone’s PPP requirements are different.
Just as a quick example. I am 6’ 220, wife is 5’4 135 early 60’s. so as a couple, you and your husband, my wife and I are not far off. My wife and I both fall asleep on our backs, and then roll to our side and spend the rest of the sleep on our side. I sometimes finish off on my stomach. So 80% side sleepers. We sleep on a mattress that is 9.5/10 firmness, rated as one of the “firmest mattresses on the market” today. Now keep in mind there is a difference between firmness and hard. Our mattress is very firm, but has a softer cover panel layer, despite the 50ILD rating. So,you don’t feel like the firm 13.5g pocketed springs are all up in your back and you feel like you are sleeping on a rock.
I just wanted to give a little background as two sets of couples reasonably similar in profiles, can desire different comfort mattress ranges.

Ok let’s address you and your husband.

I will assume you bought a slow response memory foam topper. You know the type that you sink into, it kind of swallows you like quicksand and it is hard to move around.
Not a good choice, 3” = too thick = too plush=bending/hammocking back= pain and discomfort. Your husband, as a big strong guy, able to navigate the memory foam, so there was no real issue. His larger body sinks in the foam throughout his heavier body and does not get the same affect you do. You as a petite woman, become trapped in that heat retaining, gradually softening, and slow sinking quicksand, that just can wait to make your heavier parts sink while the lighter parts float, enter the “pretzel” malalignment. This is the part where I would ask. “If the spindle felt too firm for you, how much reduction would you have desired? Perhaps a 1.5”- 2” wool, feather, or cotton topper might have been enough to cut that firmness back a bit.
It is not necessary to go through all EOS configurations. Focus on what your gut instinct tells you that you should have. I suggest you go firm support to start and build around that.
The first important component of a mattress is its ability to support you and support the layers above it. (a mattress is only as good as its weakest layer") bad support = a mattress that is going to fail for you, regardless of what you put on top of the support layer.

Husband, at the very least a medium-firm to firm. He is on his back. Most folks particularly older, need to keep their back in alignment. Not too much hammocking, bending, or unevenness is going to result in some discomfort, unless you are a world class athlete in wonderful shape. If something is too firm, you can always add a 2" layer of something less firm to ease up on surface, you don’t want to go 3", as that is where the misalignment begins to occur. As you can start to see, that relationship support, pressure points and pain are starting to present itself.
One note here. The reason for micro coils are generally this. If a manufacturer wants to remain natural or eco friendly, they ditch the pressure relieving memory foam, and substitute microcoils. Those microcoils should be no less than .75” preferrable no less than 1”. They rid the mattress of heat seeking memory foam and replace it will aerating microcoils. Microcoils offer targeted pressure relieve without the heat and the sinking. Latex can be substituted with microcoils too. For similar reasons, although latex is open cell and less heat retentive, it can be warm and a bit bouncy.

Your instincts are correct! I dont think the plush configuration is good for you. Even though you are lighter, medium to a cushion firm would be better keeping you in alignment. I would even consider the 3” soft pillowtop is too soft, go with a medium. Then and only then, if the medium pillowtop is too firm, which it wont be since it is 3” then you can add a 1”-1.5” something soft an cushy, cotton, wool, down, just to take the edge off.
As you can see, I am a big believer in a firmer support layer, and a firmer mid comfort layer. Then you adjust from there.

Speak with NP tomorrow and see what they think and how they advise. But I really believe soft and plush is not the way to go. Once you get the bed configuration down, then we will talk about pillows. I am a pillow nut. I believe the bed system is 55/45 mattress/pillow. You head, with all that it contains, needs to be on a comfortable surface that keeps you secure and aligned. I think of it as a mattress for your head. It has to support, comfort and a soft cover.

All the best,
Norm

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@Maverick (Norm) — I hope your wife won’t take this the wrong way but kisses for such a helpful reply.

That memory foam was recommended during my convo with Spindle. Since that purchase, I have learned a lot about memory foam so thank you for confirming my non-expert mind. Everything you said was spot on. Hate memory foam.

I also have recently learned about comfort layers and that thicker isn’t always better especially for petite/lighter sleepers. For us, we need “just enough” to cradle those gappy parts. I’m also not at all curvy (so your suggestion of a 1-2" wool, feather or cotton topper makes sense.

The first important component of a mattress is its ability to support you and support the layers above it. (a mattress is only as good as its weakest layer") bad support = a mattress that is going to fail for you, regardless of what you put on top of the support layer.

OK, so this makes sense to me as you can always make a “firmer” mattress "softer versus making a “softer” mattress firmer. Plus, this kinda aligns with my experience with a traditional Stearns & Foster mattress/box spring with an eggshell foam topper. Now that I think about it, that foam topper was once again, probably too thick. :thinking: Not as bad as the memory foam experience though. Did I mention I hate memory foam? haha.

Husband, at the very least a medium-firm to firm. He is on his back. Most folks particularly older, need to keep their back in alignment.

This makes sense to me. Thank you. You are telling me again to go with my instincts! I looked at him lying on his back on the Medium microcoils + Plush support coils just a few minutes ago and he is definitely sinking too much in his hip area.

One note here. The reason for micro coils are generally this. If a manufacture want to remain natural or eco friendly, they ditch the pressure relieving memory foam, and substitute microcoils. Those microcoils should be no less than .75” preferrable no less than 1”. They rid the mattress of heat seeking memory foam and replace it will aerating microcoils. Microcoils offer targeted pressure relieve without the heat and the sinking. Latex can be substituted with microcoils too. For similar reasons, although latex is open cell and less heat retentive, it can be warm and a bit bouncy.

So, how much of a difference is there between microcoils as a comfort layer versus latex? Like, is it a 1:1 relationship? Plush microcoils = soft Dunlop? Is the pressure relief and “gap fill” equal in terms of behavior of the materials between microcoils and latex? These EOS Classic beds have 3-inches of either microcoils or latex over 8-inches of support coils. I’m asking because I wonder if we should try latex for the comfort layer instead of microcoils + support coils… We don’t have issue with heat retention. In fact, in the upper Midwest, heat in the winter is welcome. I’m not sure what “bounce” means. I do know that the microcoils in the comfort layer have no edge support which isn’t a deal breaker.

Your instincts are correct! I dont think the plush configuration is good for you . Even though you are lighter, medium to a cushion firm would be better keeping you in alignment. I would even consider the 3” soft pillowtop is too soft, go with a medium. Then and only then, if the medium pillowtop is too firm, which it wont be since it is 3” then you can add a 1”-1.5” something soft an cushy, cotton, wool, down, just to take the edge off.

Yay me - haha. If I understand you, I don’t really need the EOS Pillowtop style. But if we did decide to upgrade, go more medium than soft (in my case). Correct?

OK. I’ll report back! I love talking pillows. I have too many. Right now, I sleep on a very low profile super soft pillow.

Again, thank you for allowing me to talk this out.

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Hey there,

Congratualtions, I think you really understand this. Follow your instincts. There is no guarantee what any couple of similar body types will like the same thing. Someone always has “issues.” The basic concepts though still prevail. You have got that!

Microcoil vs Latex. It is simply a different responding feel. Microcoils will allow your body to find its curves and contours and tread lightly on your pressure points. Latex will have more bounce/pushback. One is not better than the other, just different. As far as bounce goes. Think of that body swallowing memory foam topper. NOT BOUNCY. Latex has more bounce than the MC and offers that weightless feel like floating on top of the surface. MC are more subtle in their contouring and responsiveness. MC can even be zoned to enhance spinal alignment.
I will note I was never a big fan of microcoils. I have done a 180 on it. The reason being, many companies, particularly legacy brands, started throwing mc’s in their mattresses simply to up the coil count. That left a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak. A gratuitous use of mc’s, often a 1/2" or less. It did nothing sometimes made it worse. They would position them in the mattress where it was not helpful in any way. When mc’s are used properly, with a logical placement and height, mostly in the comfort layer, to swap out heat retaining memory foam, or folks who dont like or want latex, they are wonderful.

Yes, I have to agree. The 3" pillowtop may not be necessary. My philosophy on that is with the EOS, the pillowtop is something that you could add yourself. They make a matching 2" and wool topper too. It says the wool is 3" but wool compacts down differently so 3" of wool acts much differently than 3" of latex.

Yes, lean toward the firmer side. Even latex will soften a bit over time, particularly weighted toward the beginning of use.

We can talk about pillows after but you can look here. “The Collection”

I just cant help myself, always trying to one up myself, with the pillows.

Cant wait to hear what you end up trying!

Norm

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Very much agree with all that Norm has said. A thinner topper may do the trick for you. If you sleep mainly on your back, cushioning is not as much an issue. Sometimes too much cushioning can mess you up.

Hopefully Naturepedic was able to help you with your questions. We try not to interfere if they are already working with a customer, as it can get confusing for everyone.

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Great. Sadly, Naturepedic wasn’t very helpful. I’ll be heading to a store to try out some different configurations.

I did some more leg work and learned that the gap between the wall and the curve in my back is between 1-1/4 inches to 2-inches max (hard to measure that space!). So, I think a 2-inch wool/cotton/down topper (1-inch compressed), if needed, will be worth trying.

I did try a 3-inch wool topper (2-inch due to compression) over the Medium (Plush base coils + medium micrcoils) configuration and that did not go very well.

Will update when I get back with some feedback from the shop!

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Miss_Nose

Yes, please update, sorry that Naturepedic was not as helpful as one would have preferred. Who better than the manufacturer to ask questions. Keep in mind that you should lay on the mattress in whatever configuration, with whatever toppers you decide, for a good 20 to 30 minutes to allow your body to settle into the mattress.

Good luck,
Norm

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@Maverick

We made it to a Naturepedic shop (!) and the owner of the shop was super helpful.

We tried out the following:

  • (Support) Firm coils + Soft microcoils (comfort) — Naturepedic’s “Non-latex Cushion Firm”
  • (Support) Firm coils + Soft Dunlop latex (comfort) — Naturepedic’s “Latex Cushion Firm”

We definitely prefer the firm support coils. My husband especially. Thank you for the recommendation to think about this more “firm” path.

I had taken some photos of us with our current configuration and my husband was definitely sinking in with the Plush base/Soft microcoil (comfort) combo and while he looked better with the Plush base/Medium microcoil (comfort) combo, his hip area was still sinking.

(Note: for anyone reading this: Plush base + Soft Microcoil comfort layer is Naturepedic’s “Non-latex Soft” and Plush base + Medium Microcoil comfort layer is Naturepedic’s “Non-latex Medium”)

My husband much prefers the microcoils as the comfort layer. In fact, he is planning to try the Firm base (once we get it) with the Medium microcoil comfort layer. So more testing to be done there.

For me in our current configuration, I also took photos and when I was on the Plush base/Medium microcoil (comfort) combo the upper half of my body was tilting up slightly. On the Plush base/Soft microcoil (comfort) combo my body was in a better position but I think my hips were slightly lower than my shoulders.

In the store, I was on the fence about whether the soft microcoils or the soft latex “felt” better. They were just different. I did like the Firm support coils; noticeable after sleeping on Plush support coils.

My immediate reaction is that the microcoils felt more comfortable compared to the latex. Like, I felt like I was more “on top” of the latex than in it? Not sure that makes sense? It also felt more firm? So, soft microcoils ≠ soft dunlop latex. It’s not a 1:1 relationship. At least not with Naturepedic.

So, as soon as I get the latex, I’ll be testing between:
Firm base + Soft microcoils (vs) Firm base + Soft latex.

I’ll also consider adding a 2" wool, down or cotton topper IF either of them feel “too hard”.

Also, I’m learning that my lower back/hip pain is SI joint related with tight muscles tilting my pelvis so there’s going to be some adjustment I need to mentally make time/space for. (I work at a computer and sit a lot so no surprises with my current back/hip situation.) The mattress configurations if too hard or too soft aggravates the condition.

So, that’s where we are at for now. I’ll update this post once more time has passed and we have had a chance to live with the mattress.

I want to thank you, again, for your attentiveness and the Mattress Underground community for all the tutorials, education, experiences — you name it. The biggest lesson in all this, for me, is making time for the research (which takes loads of time!) to be intentional and more strategic.

My next project: Sort out our all-latex Spindle mattress!

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That is so wonderful to hear! Yay. You have me excited, I want to go there! I am so glad they were helpful and engaged. That is the way it is done. I am sure they will discuss all the ins and outs of latex vs the mc and that latex will soften slightly in the first month.
Please keep updating as you get closer to a final decision.

So happy for you two.

All the best,
Norm

Leave the all latex spindle in your guest room as is. As you have experienced, everyone is different. Let your guests decide when they sleep on it. If you want to play super host and hostess, have a topper tucked away in a closet or basement (in a topper encasement) ready to go if your guests 1st night is too firm. Otherwise, you are a great host and hostess and you did not give your guests a mattress that is full of quicksand. LOL Now if you could only tell that to my brother, when we visit him in Florida!

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It’s good that you were able to get to a showroom where you could try out the different layers. It makes such a difference! When a person has very specific needs, it is an excellent idea to try the different layers in person.

It sounds like you have some options to adjust later if needed, too.

I have heard before the sleeping on coils feels more like you are on top of the mattress, while latex has more of a feeling of you being ‘in’ the mattress (even though it is much more resilient and does not sink if a high quality latex). You’ll have to see which works best for you.

We look forward to your updates!

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Update 2-6-2024

Well…so far so complicated. Neither my husband or myself are happy yet. We are going on our second swap for layers.

(Recap) We started with:

  • Plush support (base) + Plush Microcoils (Comfort), Husband, 6ft. 225lbs
  • Plush support (base) + Medium Microcoils (Comfort), me, 5’4, 113lbs

The comfort layers are 3-inches thick.

First swap/exchange:

  • Plush support (base) > Firm support (base)
  • Plush support (base) > Firm support (base)
  • Soft microcoils (comfort) > Soft latex (comfort)

So we ended up here after that first swap (this was on the advice of the Naturepedic store owner):

  • Firm support (base) + Medium Microcoils (Comfort) for husband
  • Firm support (base) + Soft Latex (Comfort) for me

My husband continues to have low back pain. I continue to have hip pain.

I did try the Firm Support + Medium comfort (microcoil) and that was worse. For some reason, the Firm support + Soft Latex seemed more firm than the same combo with a soft microcoils comfort layer and even more firm than the Firm Support + Medium comfort microcoils. No idea what that’s all about but the difference between soft microcoils and medium microcoils seemed negligible.

We decided that the micrcoils were not for us as a comfort layer. The “feeling” was fine but the impact on our bodies, nope. Both of our hips sank nearly through both soft and medium microcoils and after a few weeks, both seemed to have a dent (for lack of a better word) before taking awhile to spring back to normal. I started to question the quality of the microcoils.

The latex comfort layers seem to be more durable?

So, we are now heading into a second swap.

  • Soft Latex (Comfort) > Firm Latex (Comfort)
  • Medium Microcoils (Comfort) > Firm Latex (Comfort)

The goal is to go Firm Support (base) + Firm Latex (comfort) for both of us. So, according to the Naturepedic website, we are now at the top level — Extra Firm. Go figure. I also got a 2" wool topper in case we needed to soften the firm. I had remembered that it is easier to soften than to firm up. And, maybe this is what @Maverick was talking about, the difference between firm and hard.

If this more recent swap (#2) doesn’t work, we’ll need to try to make another swap, assuming we make it before the deadline date. :woman_shrugging:t2: :woman_facepalming:t2:

I think Naturepedic has an XFirm support coil we could swap for my husband, and I may or may not need a Medium latex comfort layer (instead of microcoils) if the firm latex + firm support truly is hard. Maybe the 2" topper will help…crossing fingers.

I think we were just bad at making a decision when we went to the store to try the different variations. Even with all the knowledge I had gathered from these forums, still sleepless and figuring it out with a $4k mattress.

Sigh.

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OMG,
I am so sorry you are having a tough time of it. Wow. I am dizzy with all of the configurations and reconfigurations. I seem to remember going or leaning more firm for you guys, if I remember as a couple you were close to my wife and I in size and weight. Of course we sleep on one of the firmest mattresses sold on line. You mentioned something I say often. Firm, not hard.

Yes, lean toward the firmer side. Even latex will soften a bit over time, particularly weighted toward the beginning of use.

The wool topper may be a key in your final analysis. (We love our very firm mattress, but I just ordered a 3" heavier wool topper just for the heck of it. Whenever i place my wool pillow under my hip (it is a king so it goes from hips to just about shoulder) it contours my body very nicely as it compacts down and does not really change the firmness level for me, but the little added contouring is very comfortable on days when my back is not doing so well. Even though the pillow is closer to 5"+ topper is only 3" I am hoping it will produce a similar effect.

I figured I would buy one and see how it feels. Should arrive Sunday. BSC 3" Topper.

You know you could use your husband’s current firmer combo and put the topper on just your side temporarily to test it out. The latex will give you a bit more pushback float than the micocoils…

I think the firmer (please be right, :pray:) latex set up is going to work. It may take a few to break it in, but it will be a not hard firm, and it just may do it for you. If it does present itself as a little to firm, apply the topper, but give the new layers a chance for your body to adjust and the layers a period to break in. Before you place the 2" wool topper on the mattress, fold it in half and create a 4" on one side of the bed for yourself, even if it means laying it on top of the sheets. In my head I was thinking 3" would have been better when considering the compacting factor. You certainly will recognize that when it is 4" rather than 2." Just as a little test!

Good luck,

Hope it all works,

Norm

You gotta believe!

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Thanks @Maverick for the positive thoughts…

Wow. I am dizzy with all of the configurations and reconfigurations.

Yea, me too. I had to write it all down in a journal to track it all. Not fun.

It’s 5am and I woke up miserable and crying in so much pain with the Firm base + Soft Latex comfort combo… Like I slept on a hard surface. Days of this. In the middle of the night I placed the 2-in topper and no difference.

I have no clue anymore. Nothing makes sense to me. I’m miserable beyond words. :sob:

Contrary to what we’ve been discussing the soft base + soft microcoils on the foundation seems the best. At least based on the amount of pain I wake up with. I have yet to try the soft base + soft latex combo on the foundation. I even tried the Soft base + Soft latex on the floor and again, miserable. Nothing makes sense to me anymore.

I’ve tossed all “firmness” categorization out the door and I’m just trying to find a combo that allows me to sleep.

if I remember as a couple you were close to my wife and I in size and weight.

Yes, I think similar. He is 6ft, 225. Me, 5’4, 113.

Before you place the 2" wool topper on the mattress, fold it in half and create a 4" on one side of the bed for yourself, even if it means laying it on top of the sheets. In my head I was thinking 3" would have been better when considering the compacting factor. You certainly will recognize that when it is 4" rather than 2."

This is an interesting “test” idea since from everything I’ve read about my size and sleeping position, I would need a thinner comfort layer… :thinking:

The topper I bought in preparation for the firm latex comfort layers is a WOW Organic Merino Wool 2-inch topper. I thought the stitching would help minimize compression and it was really affordable. No smell.

I may try your idea on our other all-latex mattress which is much firmer than I had originally posted. Turns out our Spindle mattress is Firm (bottom) / Firm (Middle) / Medium (Top).

For yuks I input information in the latex calculator at the @Sleep_EZ website and that was an interesting configuration for an all-latex bed (as I compare it to our current all-latex)

I’m about to give up on Naturepedic and ask for a return if this latest swap doesn’t work with a topper. I’ll contact the store we went to and plea on what to do next. See what they have to say. Customer service is lacking direct through Naturepedic in terms of recommendations. I think they just don’t know. I asked Naturepedic CS about ILD of their latex and they don’t use ILD. Fair enough since I know enough that the ILD is not standardized. I’m just starting to question the quality everyone speaks of…

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So we are at an impasse and completely baffled. So I write this to update for anyone who cared to read the dizzying documentation of our journey with Naturepedic. I do have questions below but I also realize those who might have the expertise to answer are also busy people. Shoutout to Norm who has been so patient and helpful.

I’m checking on Naturepedic’s return policy since we have tried every possible swap configuration that would remotely work for us. I suppose I could try one more swap but honestly, this is exhausting especially when both of us are unable to get a decent nights sleep since we bought the mattress (months).

This is not to say that the Naturepedic EOS is a bad mattress. It just doesn’t seem, clearly, “right” for us. The pros:

  • Luxurious in terms of overall feel.
  • Customer service (for us anyway) has been great
  • The swapping process is easy and generous once you figure out the form online (see second point). I you see bad reviews about this process, it could have been during the Pandemic when supply chains and such were a hot mess.
  • No off-gassing. This is something I am very sensitive to so big plus here.
  • You can swap both comfort and support layers.

It is, for its price, a beautiful mattress. In fact I think they were just EWG (Environmental Working Group) certified. So if organic and EWG are important, this definitely is worth considering. Plus, they also have microcoils (non-latex) as a comfort layer. You just have to ask/know about that option. Other important tip: Go into a Naturepedic store and expect to spend at least an hour in the store trying out the different mattress styles and configurations.

Questions at this point that have been going through my mind and I don’t expect an answer…

  • Perhaps given that our bodies are older, we need more depth to the mattress; that a support plus comfort layer isn’t enough? I mean, we aren’t elderly but I’m open to this idea. With all the reading, I thought a more simple construction would be best but after testing a folded wool topper on top of a soft support coil / soft combo, more depth may be needed. (That combo was a marked improvement the first night but progressively went downhill each night thereafter)
  • Dunlop latex is too firm for us, especially as a comfort layer? I say this because we have an all-Dunlop latex mattress which started this entire quest for a new mattress (or fixing it) that hasn’t worked for us either. I don’t understand the science behind it all but the fact that my back and hip pain got worse from that mattress gives me pause on all Dunlop mattresses. Naturepedic only uses Dunlop latex, too.
  • A hybrid (coil + latex) isn’t for us? Again, if an all-latex hasn’t worked and clearly this two-layer pocket coil plus latex isn’t working, what’s next? Memory foam is awful for me. So, back to the first bullet point, not enough depth?
  • We may need something more zoned?

I also want to add that I, especially being more sensitive, have been seeing health practitioners to see if there’s anything whacked out mechanically or internally with my body. The SI joint “diagnosis” stated earlier was inaccurate and I am working with a personal trainer to strengthen and stretch.

BUT, the fact that my pain has seen brief moments of relief with this Naturepedic mattress trial (only the Soft Support + Soft Microcoils or the Soft Support + Soft Latex + 4-inches of wool) proves to me that my pain, most of it, can be resolved by finding the right mattress configuration. For whatever reason, the relief/improvement I find doesn’t stick. The microcoils comfort layer got a dent, the latex is too firm (?) and the wool topper, my guess, compresses.

But pain, and the neuroscience behind it, is a whole other discussion, that ironically, is impacted by sleep or the lack of it.

One could say that I’m picky, worse than Goldilocks, but the fact that my husband is unable to sleep on his side of the mattress without lower back pain is telling. He’s the guy who rarely complains about anything and could sleep just about anywhere and on any surface.

P.S.: Norm’s recommendations above about Firmer with topper. I tried one night on both a Firm Support + Soft Latex and another night with a medium microcoil on top of firm which are both more firm than anything I’ve tried before and I couldn’t get through the night let alone a few nights to adjust because the pain was off the charts. Even the non-folded wool topper (2 inches vs 4) on top of a soft configuration was awful, I couldn’t get through the night.

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Wow, you are really having a tough time of it. This is crazy. So sorry this has not gone as hoped. An indicative example of my often stated quote, " The best is only the best, if it works for you."

Often times when I have a patient who just can’t get used to their new Rx in their eyeglasses, even having changed the Rx several times, I need to take a step back. It is no so dissimilar to what you are experiencing. Patient goes into the exam room and responds precisely to the lenses during the exam, sees perfectly. Often times, will comment something similar to," if I could see like this, life would be great." Many times, they have extenuating conditions, that work in the exam room, but never seem to work in glasses. This happens more often than one would think. It is difficult to tell a patient, when they say, "just give me the Rx from what the Optometrist provided during the exam, and it should be fine! RIGHT? Nope, not so fast and not all the time. I won’t go into details here as to why, but just take my word for it. it happens!

Once I have exhausted all avenues of the Rx to Eyeglass combination, I often ask the dreaded question. “What do you (the patient) think the issue is.” I hate asking a question that where the answer can end up all over the place, but sometimes it is necessary. How do your old glasses compare in (feel, comfort and vision) to the new ones? The responses are generally, when the truth finally arrives, I see fine, it just doesn’t feel comfortable! This occasionally happens when a frame or lens style is discontinued, no longer available, and the patient simply cannot adjust to change. In some cases, they have no choice but to wear the glasses often as long as 2-5 months before they become comfortable and seem normal to them.

Having said this long and boring dissertation, the time seems just about right to ask the question. What do you think it is? What have you ever been comfortable with. Did you find that changes away from that comfortable system were slowly happening as a deterioration of that previous sleep system? Do you think it happened as a result of physical changes to age, injury or some other latent or not so obvious situation that would prevent you from being comfortable on that previous system, if new today, when it was good for you.

I think we need to explore things a little outside the box. Perhaps something not latex at all, such as a @DLX Premier DLX Premier with split comfort options. It is certainly not the all-natural or organic options that a Naturepedic offers, but clearly that is not working, at least for the time period you tried it. (I am not saying you did not give it a long enough try, but just like some of my patients, change can take a while for a body to adjust to.)

Unfortunately, the time needed and the trial offered, simply do not coincide with a successful sleep environment.

Time to take a step back and regroup and reevaluate.

Hopefully, this makes sense from a procedural level.

Norm