Need a recommendation please

Hello LMF, I’m a 190 lb side sleeper, leaning into a body pillow.

I am in need of a build for the top of pocket coils which are 14.75 Gauge Body Coil/13.5 Gauge Edge Support. There is a no cushion side and a soft side that has 1.5" foam.

I am currently on 3" 19 ild talalay. I bottom out instantly which leads to very sore hips/shoulders/back. On the soft side of the coils it is tolerable, but you still know it’s there and it’s not great.

What do you suggest? I’m open to Dunlop/talalay, multiple layers instead of one, etc. I also have a thin wool topper and a thick wool topper to play around with.

Thank you in advance for your help.

@Latex_Mattress_Fact1

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Is your base strong with closely spaced slats? The hammocking thing doesn’t make sense to me, I’m 6’0 215 pounds and with a proper base I experience no hammocking even with less firm springs.

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I’m actually going to edit my post, as I want a true answer from LMF. The hammocking is much more from traditional foams rather than latex foams anyways, as they heat up and melt under me. I’m not having that issue as much with latex.

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Hi Rcmoormt,

I have ping’d @Latex_Mattress_Fact1 so you should hear from them within the next 24-48 hours. They are very good at getting back to folks. I will refrain from offering any suggestions, since you specifically requested LMF in your heading. Good luck with your build.

Maverick

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Much appreciated, I will definitely be getting yours as well after I hear from them!

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Hello,

First, thank you for reaching out to us with your inquiry!

Based on your description of how your current 3" 19 ILD Talalay is performing, particularly the fact that you are bottoming out and feeling the pocket coils underneath, I would recommend moving up to a 3" Medium Talalay.

Talalay is a more open-celled and lighter type of latex, which generally provides more pressure relief and contouring than Dunlop. Given the firmness of the pocket coils you are working with, I don’t believe Dunlop would provide the same level of pressure relief that you are looking for, particularly as a side sleeper.

I think the key here is finding the right firmness within Talalay. A 3" Medium Talalay in the 28–32 ILD range should provide substantially more resistance than your current 19 ILD layer, helping prevent you from bottoming out while still providing enough cushioning for your shoulders and hips. It should also provide better support for the areas of your body that don’t sink as deeply into the mattress.

Since you already have both a thin and thick wool topper, you can also experiment with those above the latex to fine-tune the overall feel. However, I would start with the 3" Medium Talalay by itself and then add the wool topper if you feel you need additional surface cushioning.

Thank you again for giving us the opportunity to help!

Jeremy
Latex Mattress Factory
1-800-637-0872

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@Maverick

Now that I have a reply, can I please have your opinion? I know you’re a highly regarded expert around here.

Single layer vs multiple? Firmness? Dunlop vs talalay?

Also, do you believe the coil core I have will work for me? I have the ability to return it if necessary and go full latex.

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Since LMF are much better experts in Latex then I am, my gut reaction is that the 3" Medium Talalay recommendation is reasonable, but I wouldn’t necessarily jump straight from 3" of 19 ILD to 3" of 28 to 32 ILD without at least considering a transition layer.

At 190 lbs and being a side sleeper, the fact that you are bottoming out almost immediately tells me the issue may not be simply surface softness. Your 3" 19 ILD is probably allowing your hips and shoulders to travel too far into the latex before the support underneath catches you. I think the 3" Medium latex is likely to prevent you from bottoming out, but maybe the goal shouldn’t just be focused on that. Although, that would probably be the first thing I’d try.

Looking at this a little out of the box, I wonder if a two layer latex build might make more sense than simply making the entire 3" comfort layer firmer. Something like 2" of softer Talalay in the 19 to 24 ILD range over 2" to 3" of Medium latex in roughly the 28 to 32 ILD range would be very interesting. Or just adding the Medium Talalay underneath the softer Talalay you already have.

The softer upper layer can give your shoulders and hips the pressure relief you need, while the firmer layer underneath gives you more resistance before you reach the coils.

I also wouldn’t rule out Dunlop. Talalay can certainly work well for a side sleeper, but the idea that Dunlop can’t provide adequate pressure relief for a side sleeper is too broad. The firmness, thickness, and combination of layers matter much more than simply whether the latex is Talalay or Dunlop.

Since you already have the 3" 19 ILD Talalay, you may as well use it. If you could put a firmer 2" to 3" latex layer underneath it, that would let you test whether the real problem is insufficient transition support rather than the 19 ILD comfort layer itself.

Granted, 19 ILD Talalay is pretty soft for someone at 190 lbs, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the wrong layer. The transition layer underneath it could be the missing piece. You just want to keep an eye on the overall height of the mattress. 6" of latex, 8" of spring support, maybe a base layer, and you’re already getting up there before we even get to the wool toppers.

I consider the wool toppers more of a finishing piece or final touch rather than something to use to solve the bottoming out. Once you have enough latex underneath you to keep the coils from saying hello to your body parts, the wool can be used to fine tune the surface feel.

I have a 3" organic wool topper, although we haven’t used it in a while. It was just awesome to sleep on. The only thing that was kind of annoying was the body impressions it allowed. I’d make the bed in the morning and it looked like there were two pods where we slept. Don’t get me wrong, there was no discomfort at all. In fact, the way the wool conformed to our bodies actually made the bed more comfortable. The bed just looked like something was wrong when I’d make it in the morning. Perhaps if your wool toppers are highly compressed, you might not have that issue.

I’d say first try to determine whether adding 2" to 3" of Medium latex underneath your existing 3" 19 ILD gives you the combination of pressure relief and support you’re missing. That seems like a more informative experiment than simply replacing the 19 ILD with 3" of 30 ILD.

You need to get the higher ILD anyway, so why not give the combo a shot. Try it for a few days, then remove the 19 ILD and try the firmer layer by itself for a few days. That should tell you quite a bit about whether the problem is the 19 ILD itself or the lack of a transition layer.

Like I always mention, take a good look at your pillow, and an eagle eye look at your foundation. If your slats are flexing, that is not helping matters at all. It is hard to fix everything above the foundation if it isn’t supporting everything above it.

Maverick

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Very informative reply Maverick, thank you.

I believe I’ll have to ship back the current 19 ild, so I’m not banking on having it. Given it is really doing zero pressure relief with my size, I really don’t want to repurchase it after this.

I liked and agree with what you said about not dismissing Dunlop. What would be your thoughts on medium talalay over medium dunlop on my coils?

It seems like the Dunlop would be a sort of transition as you recommended as it has less give than the talalay on top of it.

If you do agree, the next step is how many inches. My immediate thought was 2 and 2, but you have significant more knowledge about this than me, so I’d like your input. Mine was just a guess really.

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I actually like the thinking on the Dunlop. If you can keep the 19 ILD long enough to experiment, I think that would be a very worthwhile test before you send it back. I can not imagine they would not let you, but it may be worth asking.

I’d be interested in trying 3" of medium Dunlop underneath your existing 3" 19 ILD Talalay. I’m thinking of the Dunlop as a substantial support layer rather than necessarily calling it a transition layer. Regardless of what you call it, I like the idea and the direction. The idea would be to give the softer Talalay something more substantial to compress into before you get to the coils. This combination may prevent you from bottoming out on the 19. I know it sounds crazy, that you might not bottom out on the 19 when it sits on top of a 28-32 medium dunlop, but how the layers compress is often more about the overall construction and support.

If the 19 ILD suddenly works much better with 3" of Dunlop underneath it, that would tell you that the problem may not be that the 19 ILD is incapable of providing pressure relief at your weight. It may simply be that there wasn’t enough resistance underneath it, allowing you to travel through the Talalay too quickly and get into the coils.

If you ultimately decide the 19 ILD is just too soft, then I really like the idea of 3" medium Dunlop with 2" medium Talalay on top. I would probably choose that over 2" + 2" in your situation because the extra inch of Dunlop gives you a more substantial support layer over those coils, while the 2" Talalay should still give your shoulders and hips some pressure relief.

So if you can keep the 19 ILD, I’d try the 3" Dunlop underneath it first. That experiment should tell you quite a bit. If it works but feels too soft or unstable on top, then you could try the 3" Dunlop with 2" of medium Talalay.

The one thing I’d want to nail down before ordering the Dunlop is exactly what their “medium.” Dunlop is. I assume 28-32, but Dunlop and Talalay ILDs aren’t directly 100% comparable, so I wouldn’t try to match the Talalay’s 28 to 32 ILD number exactly. I would trust LMF with their medium definitions though. Everyone involved wants this to work.

I think you’re on the right track here. Rather than just making the entire comfort layer firmer, you’re adding some real support underneath the softer material and seeing what that does. That’s a pretty useful experiment.

What are your thoughts?

Maverick

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My thought is analysis paralysis :joy:

Here is my concern, and it may not be true, but it’s on the back of my mind.

I’ve been at this for months. Nearly every mattress I try feels great for a week, then the comfort layers start to settle and it wrecks my body. Latex is supposed to be superior and not settle as much as other materials, but my 19 ild, I can feel a noticeable difference where I normally sleep and where I don’t… It’s more supportive where I don’t as it’s not broken in.

I know you’ll ask lol … My coils, which are like a month old, are on a posturepedic foundation, also a month old. Unless the coils are somehow giving out, which I don’t know how that would be possible, it’s the softening of comfort layers.

So here’s my concern, am I going to get this large stack of latex, 5 to 6 inches and start sinking into it significantly, more and more as time goes on?

My only experience with latex is the 3" 19 ild talalay, so I’m not an expert with this. I only know how all the other mattresses have treated me and that the 19 ild is acting similar. It could very well be that a fresh 19 ild barely supported me, and a broken in one does next to nothing, but a medium could be perfect, I just don’t have the experience to know.

My last concern is should I just return my entire setup and go all latex. I just had a thought today. The last mattress I truly liked was an original Leesa from 2015. Had it for 10 years. Zero coils.

Again, analysis paralysis lol

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Hi Again.

I would not beat yourself up with analysis paralysis. You want something to work and it is getting…no already frustrating. I think there are a couple of things worth separating here before you make another big change.

First, your Posturepedic foundation is likely a semiflex foundation. I am not convinced that is necessarily the best foundation to be using under a latex hybrid, so I would be curious to see what happens if you put the mattress directly on the floor for a few nights. Not as a permanent solution, but simply as a test. If the mattress behaves differently, then you have learned something important without buying anything else.

As far as the latex goes, I would not assume that because your 3" 19 ILD Talalay has softened or broken in that 5 or 6 inches of latex is eventually going to have you sinking progressively deeper and deeper. Latex is generally much more stable than most other foams, but 19 ILD is still a very soft material as we have discussed before. It is entirely possible that what you are experiencing is simply that 19 ILD is too soft for you once it has broken in and does not have some underlying support so it can perform differently, rather than evidence that latex itself is going to continue losing support.

I would also be careful about drawing too much of a conclusion from the difference between the area you sleep on and the unused area. Latex will conform to what is underneath it, and a softer layer can certainly feel different after being used for a while, but that does not necessarily mean the underlying coils are failing.

You also mentioned something that I think is worth paying attention to. The last mattress you really liked was the original Leesa, and you had that for ten years without coils. I would not ignore that history. It doesn’t prove that an all-latex mattress is the answer, but it does suggest that you may actually prefer the feel and behavior of an all-foam construction.

I would probably resist the urge to return everything and start over just yet. You have a relatively new coil unit and foundation, and there are still a couple of variables you can isolate first. Try the mattress on a truly rigid surface and see whether the behavior changes. If it doesn’t, then I would start looking more closely at the 19 ILD layer itself and whether a firmer comfort layer would give you the support you are looking for, but I still believe that potentially adding a transition support layer between the coils and upper comfort layer, has merit.

And yes, at some point we all reach analysis paralysis with mattresses. :joy: Sometimes the best thing you can do is stop changing three things at once and eliminate them one at a time.

Maverick

You’re a lot of help Maverick.

I just looked, and the stablesupport foundation is not semi flex thankfully. I truly think it’s simply a topper issue that I need to fix.

I think you’re right and I just need to buy SOMETHING to run some tests that I can return if it fails.

I’ve narrowed it down to medium talalay and Dunlop as discussed. I just want to buy 1 at first and see what happens (I believe I’ll be able to keep the 19ild long enough to test things out). You stated Dunlop first, as did Sleep EZ, who I’ve recently spoken to. They stated to go 2 or 3 inches depending on how much buffer I would want.

Would you strongly recommend the 3 inch over 2 as that dunlop buffer layer?

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The Sealy Stablesupport foundation is a wire grid style foundation. It is not exactly a semiflex, but very similar. I cant be certain that it can be an issue, but those wire grid foundations are normally not the best option for latex mattresses. I would still like for you to test it on the floor or with a flat piece of plywood on top of the stablesupport.

> Sealy does not display the interior because it reveals that the modern foundation is primarily a basic, rigid grid rather than a complex mechanism.

Just check the foundation to see if your stablesupport, has the solid fiberboard layer on top of the grid. If it does, then you are fine, if it doesnt, you need a solid board on top of the foundation.

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Have you considered trying a firmer latex layer underneath the soft one? It might give you more support while still keeping some pressure relief for your shoulders and hips. Also curious if anyone here has had good results with a two-layer setup.