Ready to Buy Latex... Limited Tryout Ability

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi
I’ve been reading this site for a couple of weeks, and it’s been a huge help. I am ready to leave behind my 11 year old innerspring mattress. I’m 5’6" and about 240 lbs so am aware that I need thicker and firmer comfort layers and firmer support layers. I’m probably a 90% side sleeper/10% stomach sleeper. I also sleep warm so am looking for the coolest sleep possible.

I live in NYC so don’t have many options to try things out, so I’m going to have to mostly use the advice from this forum, and from the manufacturers. I went to The Clean Bedroom here in NYC which only had 2 Savvy Rest configurations set up. The saleslady was knowledgeable and patient and gave me good insight (although they quoted a 4-6 week delivery timeframe, a $199 “mattress set-up” fee and $100 “mattress removal” fee – yikes!). I tried the Serenity (bottom-top) firm/medium/soft Savvy Rest that felt a bit too firm, but it seemed good when I put the wool topper on it. I also tried a (bottom-top) medium/medium/soft version (I think Organicpedic talalay) that I thought was really comfy but seemed not firm enough –almost too soft. So, I’m feeling a little like goldilocks. I tend to like my mattress to feel supportive for my lower back, but I like the top to feel sort and comforting… but not like I’m sinking/unable to turnover easily.

I’m leaning towards the (bottom-top) firm/medium/soft or medium/medium/soft SleepEZ 10,000 --OR-- the Brooklyn Bedding 10" Essence in medium – OR – the Flexus Comfort Natural Latex Comfort 10" (not as wild about this as I think Talalay may be too soft). Any of these, I would use with the following set-up:

  1. Bedbug protector/mattress encasement: Protect-A-Bed’s AllerZip: http://www.protectabed.com/mattress_encasements/allerzip_smooth_mattress_encasement.asp
  2. Organic ECO-Pure Wool Mattress Topper Standard: http://www.surroundewe.com/Products.asp?d=0&ID=7
  3. SurroundEwe washable wool protector pad: http://www.surroundewe.com/Products.asp? id=47&cat=Linens%2F+Duvets%2F+Organic+Cotton+Sheet+Sets%7CMattress+Topper+Coverlets
    – OR –
  4. St Dormeir Mattress protector: https://www.flobeds.com/products/2140ST

So, my next steps are to call the manufacturers for their advice, and also to ask for your esteemed opinion. I have a lot of questions so please don’t feel obligated to answer them all. Any information you can provide would be so helpful.

• Given my weight, am I better off with a 13" mattress or is a 10" mattress sufficient?
• For the mattress protector, is a St. Dormeir 16" pocket okay considering mattress depth plus topper? I think both mattresses that I’m considering are 10" plus another 5" for the topper, so maybe it’ll just fit.
• Is the St. Dormeir or the Surround Ewe washable wool protector pad a better choice? I live in a NYC apartment and don’t have the ability to choose a “low heat” dryer setting or put my mattress pad in the sun (as recommended by Surround Ewe).
• Will the standard size of the SurroundEwe Wool Mattress Topper (4-5" after tufting) cause an issue for me, either from an alignment standpoint or sinking in too much/creating a depression because of my weight?
• Does the wool layer in the Brooklyn Bedding mattress make a big difference in keeping cool? I’m strongly considering this mattress due to this layer, but I can imagine that it’ll get compressed very quickly and then might then become detrimental. I also have no way to try it out in advance, so I don’t know whether I’ll be ok with the feel (as I read on the forum that it changes the way the latex mattress feels).
• Is a bed rug, like this one, only necessary for people using platforms without slats? Or is it a good idea regardless of your foundation? http://www.savvyrest.com/products/foundations/bed-rug?
• Am I better off with a Dunlop comfort layer (assuming also Dunlop support layers) due to my weight? I read this one your forum: ‘…while Dunlop is considered to be more supportive because it doesn’t compress as deeply with greater weight.’ I don’t have pains to worry about, so don’t need pressure relief really, but my current mattress does give me morning back pain… hence why I’m considering Dunlop. I didn’t really prefer Dunlop or Talalay during my test drives.
• As a continuation of the prior question, you stated on one of your mattress forum responses that people with lower back aches should be careful of a too-soft/too-thick comfort layer. Do I need to be concerned about either 1) a soft top layer, rather than a medium, or 2) using a wool topper? I understand if your response to this question is “call the manufacturer!”

I know this is a ton of questions and I do plan to call the manufacturers. But any advice you have would be marvelous.
Thank you! Tor

2

Hi tor,

You may have seen this but just in case you haven’t … the better options or possibilities I’m aware of in the New York City area are in post #2 here.

Either one could work well for you (you are not in a weight range that 12" of latex would be “necessary” but it still may be a preference). The choice would depend on the specific layering and which one was the best match in terms of PPP. There is more about the effects of thickness in post #14 here.

It’s normally better to have about 2" to spare. Post #2 here and post #29 here may also be helpful.

The Surround Ewe doesn’t list any specifics on their site and I don’t have any knowledge about it so I really don’t know.

Again … these are the types of questions that only your own experience can know. It would be typical for wool to compress about 30% over time and some compression in wool doesn’t normally affect alignment although it can gradually reduce comfort over a longer period of time as the wool compresses and packs down. I don’t know when you would cross the threshold between when a wool mattress topper is comfortable for you to when it would start to become uncomfortable. I think that a minimum of 5 years would probably be realistic but many people keep their wool toppers and are happy with them for much longer than this.

It would make some difference yes but I don’t know how to quantify how much because there are so many factors involved with sleeping temperature (see post #2 here) and it will also depend on where they are in the oven to iceberg range. The wool wouldn’t be thick enough that compression would cause an issue and most of the pressure relief would come from the foam layers in the quilting and the mattress not the wool.

It wouldn’t be necessary under a slatted foundation or platform which already allowed good airflow.

This would be a preference choice not a “better/worse” choice. Dunlop and Talalay can both work well in comfort and support layers in a suitable design and firmness level. There is more in post #7 here about the difference in “feel” between them but your own experience would be the most reliable way to know which one would be “better for you”.

There are too may unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved to use specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance to predict what you will do best with (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here) so my answer here is just as you may have expected … the manufacturers themselves are always the best source of knowledge and guidance about their own mattresses designs and options :slight_smile:

Phoenix

3

Phoenix,
I really can’t thank you enough for making the time to reply to my litany of questions. Your answers were extremely helpful and I feel much better equipped to call the manufacturers of each of these products. Before I found your site, I was dreading the mattress buying experience, but now I’m rather thrilled to solve the puzzle.
Thanks again, tor

EDIT:
I just got off the phone with Shawn at SleepEZ. Wow, everything people on this forum that people have said about him is true - knowledgeable, primary focus on customer satisfaction over the higher sale, etc. He recommended an all talalay (bottom-top) firm, medium, medium, given the side-sleeper/weight combination. Maybe I’ll pay the price for not trying it out in advance, but it’s not really an option. He said, if it’s too hard, I can either return one of the medium layers (knowing that this will diminish the life of the mattress due to the weight) or that I can buy a soft topper which would be a better option, given that it moves independently. I think this is a great recommendation.
Shawn also said that he had just gotten off the phone with you and, while he’s never met you, he said he could talk to you for hours about mattresses! He’s clearly a big fan… just as I think all of your members probably are. Thanks again.

4

Hi tor,

[quote]I really can’t thank you enough for making the time to reply to my litany of questions. Your answers were extremely helpful and I feel much better equipped to call the manufacturers of each of these products. Before I found your site, I was dreading the mattress buying experience, but now I’m rather thrilled to solve the puzzle.
Thanks again, tor

EDIT:
I just got off the phone with Shawn at SleepEZ. Wow, everything people on this forum that people have said about him is true - knowledgeable, primary focus on customer satisfaction over the higher sale, etc. He recommended an all talalay (bottom-top) firm, medium, medium, given the side-sleeper/weight combination. Maybe I’ll pay the price for not trying it out in advance, but it’s not really an option. He said, if it’s too hard, I can either return one of the medium layers (knowing that this will diminish the life of the mattress due to the weight) or that I can buy a soft topper which would be a better option, given that it moves independently. I think this is a great recommendation.[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback … I appreciate it.

I especially like how you put it in terms switching from apprehension and dread to the “thrill” of solving the puzzle. That’s certainly the most effective approach when you are “armed” with meaningful information.

I’ve been very fortunate to have come to know so many great people while I’ve been doing this … and Shawn is certainly one of them and I also enjoy all of our conversations :slight_smile:

Whatever I may know and share on the site is the result of talking with many people like Shawn and others over the years who have been very generous with their time and knowledge and experience. Their friendship is one of the best “side effects” of running the site.

One day when time permits I may even get to do some traveling and meet many of them in person!

Phoenix

5

Tor,

I don’t want to influence you too much as everyone feels things differently. I am about your weight, 5’10, and am also a side sleeper. I just got a 13" latex mattress from Flexus (who were great BTW). Mine is 3 3" layers of dunlop, 40, 35, and 31 ild and one 3" layer of 22-24 ild talalay. I was worried my bed would be too soft and I am surprised by how firm it is. Depending on how I do after my 30 days, I may swap out the 24 for a 19 layer. In any case, good luck with your purchase.

6

djarchow,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience! Any and all inputs are helpful and I’m really grateful for yours. I’ll definitely look at the Flexus. It was on my original list and I need to take another look. I hadn’t concerned myself too much with the ILDs but I think I need to… every manufacturer’s firm is different!
One thing I’d love to ask you is about your selection of Dunlop. One of the things I’ve heard is that, especially for side sleepers who may have some extra weight, Talalay can be preferable because Dunlop is uneven and, when you sink further into the mattress, that unevenness (some harder spots, some softer) can be annoying. Have you had that experience?
I’d love hear from you about this, and also how you do after your 30 days.
Thanks again! Tor

7

Hi tor,

When you are testing mattresses locally your body will tell you what you need to know about whether a mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP and I wouldn’t put much emphasis on ILD numbers. At best they may be a curiosity and at worst they can be very misleading because ILD is only one of many “specs” that are part of how a mattress feels and performs. Using ILD numbers by themselves are one of those cases where a “little bit of knowledge” can do more harm than good if you focus on them more than on your actual experience on a mattress.

This is a good example of something that may have “a little bit of truth” in some cases or something that may happen rarely that is exaggerated into an “issue” that a consumer becomes concerned about it. These kinds of things are often more about marketing and selling a mattress than fact. I would take these types of statements with a big grain of salt and I would let your body tell you the “truth”.

Phoenix

8

[quote=“tor” post=37452]djarchow,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience! Any and all inputs are helpful and I’m really grateful for yours. I’ll definitely look at the Flexus. It was on my original list and I need to take another look. I hadn’t concerned myself too much with the ILDs but I think I need to… every manufacturer’s firm is different!
One thing I’d love to ask you is about your selection of Dunlop. One of the things I’ve heard is that, especially for side sleepers who may have some extra weight, Talalay can be preferable because Dunlop is uneven and, when you sink further into the mattress, that unevenness (some harder spots, some softer) can be annoying. Have you had that experience?
I’d love hear from you about this, and also how you do after your 30 days.
Thanks again! Tor[/quote]

I haven’t noticed any hard or soft spots in the dunlop. The dunlop from Flexus at least on the surface, looks just as consistent as the Radium talalay top layer they sent me. I can notice a small difference in firmness between the top of the dunlop layer and the bottom but it is very slight and consistent across the entire surface. With a talalay topper and a cover there is no way you are going to feel that.

I agree with Phoenix that thee are many things that influence the way the bed feels and ILD is just one of them. For example, I think the cover makes a big difference in the feel. I tried a King Koil Natural Response latex mattress at a local store. They had the old version and the newer version. The only difference was a stretchy knit cover vs. a more traditional bamboo and wool tufted cover. The latex layers were identical. They felt like completely different beds.

I think where the ILDs are helpful is when you are comparing between different companies/beds because as you mention one company’s firm ild may be another company’s extra firm ild. Of course this only applies if you are actually lying on them and trying to use that to get in the ballpark when ordering from an online company. If you can’t try them at all, then they are just another meaningless number on a website and you are much better off going by the recommendation of the seller and choosing one with a good layer exchange policy.

Good luck with your purchase.

9

Hi Phoenix and djarchow,
Thank you both for the incredible guidance you’ve given me over the past few days. I’ve spent a lot of time looking over the SleepEZ, Flexus Comfort and FloBeds sites and I’ve made up my mind.

Phoenix,
Before I pull the trigger, may I just ask for your opinion on my final set-up? Even after all this research, I’m still a bit confused about the mattress encasement vs. the mattress protector. As I live in NYC, I definitely need the Protect-a-Bed bedbug mattress encasement. Based on this, I think my set-up should be in this order, but could you tell me if this is accurate?

  1. Foundation
  2. Mattress
  3. Bedbug protector/Mattress Encasement
  4. Topper
  5. Topper Cover
  6. Mattress Protector

So these are the choices I’ve finally alit upon:

Foundation
FloBeds Fir Slat Foundation

Mattress:
SleepEZ Natural Latex 10,000
https://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattresses.htm -
(bottom-top): firm Dunlop, medium talalay, medium talalay
OR
SleepEZ Natural Latex 13,000
(bottom-top): firm Dunlop, medium Dunlop, medium talalay, medium talalay

Bedbug Protector/Mattress Encasement:
Protect-A-Bed’s AllerZip
http://www.protectabed.com/mattress_encasements/allerzip_smooth_mattress_encasement.asp

Topper:
Organic ECO-Pure Wool Mattress Topper Standard ($469)

Topper Cover:
Soothe Ewe™ Organic cotton Mattress Topper coverlet

OR
ECO-Pure Wool Washable Protector Pad

Mattress Protector:
St Dormeir 24":
http://www.snuggledown.com/s/catalog/st_geneve/st_dormeir_wool_mattress_protectors/product.22061.36265/

I have just a couple of other questions, if you have a moment or two!

  • Is adding the St. Dormeir mattress protector a good idea if I have a wool or latex topper? I can imagine that this might make it harder to air out the mattress and topper? I’m thinking that if I go with a wool topper, I would be better off with something like the Shepherds Dream wool washable protector pad (instead of an encasement).
  • As someone of a higher weight, who is primarily a side sleeper but also does some stomach sleeping, do you have thoughts on whether a wool topper (considering the Surround Ewe Standard topper which compresses to 4-5" after tufting) or a soft/thing latex topper is preferable? I was leaning towards the wool topper for temperature control but I don’t want to create a situation where my hips are sinking in too much when I’m on my stomach, hence then leaning towards the thin/soft latex topper (like this: Toppers - Sleep EZ). Maybe the situation can be solved by selecting a thinner wool topper (like the Surround Ewe Economy topper which compresses to 2" after tufting).

Still haven’t determined whether I need a SleepEz 13,000 PLUS a topper. I’m really considering going with a SleepEZ 10,000 plus either the wool topper or the soft latex, depending on your thoughts. I’ve spoken to Shawn and he was great, but I’d love to know what you think, as well.

Thank you so much, in advance, Phoenix!!
vic

10

Hi tor,

[quote]Before I pull the trigger, may I just ask for your opinion on my final set-up? Even after all this research, I’m still a bit confused about the mattress encasement vs. the mattress protector. As I live in NYC, I definitely need the Protect-a-Bed bedbug mattress encasement. Based on this, I think my set-up should be in this order, but could you tell me if this is accurate?

Foundation
Mattress
Bedbug protector/Mattress Encasement
Topper
Topper Cover
Mattress Protector[/quote]

Post #2 here has more about bedbugs, dust mites, and encasements including a link to what I believe is among the most informative sites on the internet about bedbugs and the different strategies that can be used to protect against them and to deal with them if you do get a bedbug infestation.

The first thing I would keep in mind is that a mattress encasement will have nothing to do with whether you get bedbugs … it will only protect your mattress against being infested and needing to be disinfected if you do get an infestation. A dust mite encasement is a different product from a bed bug encasement so if you want to protect against bedbugs then you need a bed bug encasement.

At the very least … I would tend to use an encasement around your mattress and another one around your foundation (which may be an even more likely place to shelter bedbugs).

I would tend to encase any part of your sleeping system that you want to protect from bedbugs where there would be no other options to eliminate bedbugs and their eggs and larvae if you do get an infestation. If you do get an infestation then you can put your pillows in a dryer for long enough to kill them and if your topper would also fit inside a commercial dryer then you could kill the bedbugs that way as well. If you do decide to protect your topper as well then you can put them inside the bedbug encasement but I would keep in mind that the arrangement will be semi permanent and you won’t be able to remove the topper. In other words … anything that is inside the encasement would become a permanent part of your sleeping system. I would tend to keep toppers outside of the encasement and then deal with any infestation of the topper when and if it happens because it’s wouldn’t be nearly as big an issue to replace a topper as it would a mattress/foundation.

So that would mean you have an encased foundation with an encased mattress on top of it.

Now that you have decided what parts of your sleeping system you want inside the bedbug encasement … then the next step would be to add the topper (either inside or outside the encasement but I would personally add it outside the encasement).

The mattress protector is a completely different product with a different function than a bed bug encasement and is used to keep your sleeping surface in a clean and hygienic condition and to protect against dust mites, body fluids, skin flakes, and accidents, and to be easily removed and washed. Your “sleeping surface” would be either the top of a mattress or if you are using a topper then it would be the topper itself. In most cases … the mattress protector would be used over the topper to protect it, especially if you are using a breathable and water resistant mattress protector, although some people may choose to sleep directly on the topper (especially if it’s wool which can be put in the sun to air it out and activate the “self cleansing” properties of the wool) and don’t want a mattress protector to affect the feel and performance of the topper. This would be a personal preference. If you use a topper without a mattress protector that would also prevent moisture and skin cells from reaching the mattress and you are OK with replacing the topper in case of an accident or it becomes unhygienic and needs to be replaced a little more quickly then you probably wouldn’t need a mattress protector at all since the topper would be performing a dual function (adding softness and pressure relief and also protecting the mattress). I would tend to use a breathable protector over the topper.

[quote]ECO-Pure Wool Washable Protector Pad

Mattress Protector:
St Dormeir 24":
www.snuggledown.com/s/catalog/st_geneve/...product.22061.36265/

I have just a couple of other questions, if you have a moment or two!

Is adding the St. Dormeir mattress protector a good idea if I have a wool or latex topper? I can imagine that this might make it harder to air out the mattress and topper? I'm thinking that if I go with a wool topper, I would be better off with something like the Shepherds Dream wool washable protector pad (instead of an encasement).[/quote]

You would only need one or the other of these two protectors … not both since they would both be used over the topper and both would provide breathable water resistant protection. I would personally tend to use a protector over a topper regardless of what type of cover is around the topper because it’s easier to remove and clean.

For the large majority of people a latex mattress with a wool quilted cover and a wool/cotton protector and sheets that are good for temperature regulation (viscose materials, cotton, linen etc) will easily be “cool enough” and adding a thicker wool topper would be more about changing the feel and performance of the mattress than it was about temperature regulation. It would be a preference choice for those that liked the “feel” of sleeping on thicker layers of wool. I would also keep in mind that thicker wool toppers will change the feel and response of any latex below it so you would “feel” more of the properties of the wool and less of the latex. I would also keep in mind that wool will tend to be firmer than a softer foam material.

You certainly wouldn’t “need” 12" of latex plus an additional topper (especially if it was latex) since 12" would be more than enough although some people may still prefer it but the only way to know which one you would prefer would be to test both of them side by side. You would also have the option of using 9" of latex and then adding a topper on top of this which would create more of a “pillowtop” feel because a topper can “act” a little more independently and “feel” a little softer outside a cover than inside it (see the first page of posts in this topic along with posts #3 and #4 here). I can’t imagine anyone “needing” more than 12" of latex even if they did prefer it.

Phoenix

11

WOW, Phoenix, again thank you! Your response was exactly what I needed to sort out my muddled mind. I’ve made my final decision now and, boy, is it different than where I started when I began this research 4 weeks ago. Just in case you keep track of these things :blink:, this is where I’ve ended up (products in order from bottom to top):

Foundation:
FloBeds Fir Slat Foundation
https://www.flobeds.com/products/foundations-legs/

Bedbug protector/box spring encasement:
Protect-A-Bed
http://www.usbedbugs.com/Protect-A-Bed-Box-Spring-Encasement_p_16.html

Mattress:
SleepEZ Natural Latex 10,000 (bottom-top): firm Dunlop, medium talalay, medium talalay
https://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattresses.htm

Bedbug protector/mattress encasement:
Protect-A-Bed’s AllerZip 12-18" in height
http://www.usbedbugs.com/Protect-A-Bed-AllerZip-Smooth-Mattress-Encasement_p_14.html

Topper:
SleepEZ Latex and Wool Topper
https://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-topper-wool.htm
The topper will be outside of the bedbug protector but inside the St. Dormeir protector

Mattress protector:
St Dormeir 24"
http://www.snuggledown.com/s/catalog/st_geneve/st_dormeir_wool_mattress_protectors/product.22061.36265/

Thanks again for everything, Phoenix. I’m so stoked to get this ordered and set up. Just a little apartment reno to finish before I order!
My sincere thanks, tor

12

Hi tor,

I’m glad the site could help you!

It sounds like you’re all set and you’ve made some great choices IMO.

Congratulations on all your purchases (once your renos are done and you are ready to pull the trigger that is) … and thanks as well for your questions which hopefully will help others that are looking in similar directions as well.

I’m looking forward to your feedback once you receive everything and have had a chance to sleep on your new “sleeping system”.

Phoenix

13

Hi Phoenix,
I’ve been meaning to check in and let you know how things have gone with my new, first-ever latex mattress. So here goes!

The first few nights I thought I’d died and gone to heaven. I’ve never felt such comfort in my life. Unfortunately, about a week after I got my SleepEZ mattress (firm on bottom, medium in the middle, medium on top), I started feeling severe lower back pain… a worse version of the kind of pain I’d had on my 11 year old innerspring mattress. It turns out I’m really a 50% side/50% stomach sleeper, and I think that’s the issue. At any rate, I’m waking up at least 5-6 times a night with severe pain in my lower back.

Before I call SleepEZ, can you give me your thoughts on what is best? I almost wonder whether I shouldn’t request an extra-firm bottom, firm middle and keep my medium on the top (or go to a firm top). I do love the wonderful soft feeling of the medium on top but i clearly don’t have the support I need.

I’d love your thoughts! I have no regrets about going latex but I have to sort out this back pain problem!
Thank you! Tor

14

Hi tor,

[quote]The first few nights I thought I’d died and gone to heaven. I’ve never felt such comfort in my life. Unfortunately, about a week after I got my SleepEZ mattress (firm on bottom, medium in the middle, medium on top), I started feeling severe lower back pain… a worse version of the kind of pain I’d had on my 11 year old innerspring mattress. It turns out I’m really a 50% side/50% stomach sleeper, and I think that’s the issue. At any rate, I’m waking up at least 5-6 times a night with severe pain in my lower back.

Before I call SleepEZ, can you give me your thoughts on what is best? I almost wonder whether I shouldn’t request an extra-firm bottom, firm middle and keep my medium on the top (or go to a firm top). I do love the wonderful soft feeling of the medium on top but i clearly don’t have the support I need.[/quote]

The first thing that I would normally suggest is a conversation with SleepEZ since they can help “talk you through” the options that may work best for you which is normally more effective than the more limited communications that are possible on a forum.

Having said that … it seems that with the amount of stomach sleeping you do that your pelvis may be sinking down too far which can result in sleeping in a swayback position and cause pain or discomfort in the lower back. Firming up the deeper support of the mattress would be the first thing I would suggest. I would start by moving the firm layer up one level so that you are sleeping on M/F/M and then using the results of the new combination and how your symptoms change compared to your initial configuration as a “pointer” for any additional changes or any layer exchange that you may need.

Phoenix

15

Thank you very much, Phoenix, for the typically fast and informative reply! I’ll give that a shot and then give SleepEZ a call.
Happy weekend! Tor