Requesting mattress help in south florida

Wow, thanks for calling them! Do you know what location that was? I’m going to go to the hollywood one, since it’s closer. Do you think they are being aggressive with their prices because of the new models coming out? Is there even a difference? Or is just that they are trying to sell the old ones to make room for the new? Either way, that’s the one I liked anyway so it doesn’t matter to me if there’s a newer model. I mean it’s high quality latex, how different can it be right? Thanks again, can’t wait to get it!

Hi beth819,

I just picked one of the locations from google to phone … I think it was the South Miami location though.

I think that aggressive pricing is part of their business model. He told me that the PLB’s they had on the floor were the new ones and that they’ve been carrying them for about a month but I don’t know if that’s the case with all the outlets or if the price you were quoted was for any old versions they may have left.

Part of it too may be the Mattress Firm buyout of Mattress Xpress so they are clearing out some models that they won’t be carrying as Mattress Firm so the Zmattress price may just be for competitive reasons during the transition as well.

Either way … it’s good for you :slight_smile:


Hi Phoenix,

So I went to the z mattress store today and the owner happened to be there. They had the new Nature model there, which looks completely different with blue in the quiliting and it feels firmer than the old model. So as soon as I started to ask what was in the new model and talk about ILD’s, the owner took over and proceeded to tell me completely stupid information about ILD’s, how they don’t mean anything or whatever other bs he was trying to tell me. I didn’t really care what he had to say, since they are just means to an end to get the PLB, but he was really getting on my nerves. He was “trying” to pull up the specs of the new model, but continued to talk my ear off instead. Anyway, he said he can still get me the old model if I wanted which I did because the new one felt completely different, but even then he was trying to tell me how much better the new models are and why they discontinued the old models, because the latex wasn’t consistent, etc etc. Then he asked how long I’ve been shopping/researching and started to tell him I was going to local manufacturers, to which he told me they don’t have good quality materials and they could end up selling me old mattress, etc. I was seriously ready to walk out.

So he gave me the “owners price” since I’ve been shoping forever and know what I want, etc., so he said $1599 for the set. But then he tried to get me to buy an $125 diamond frame that he’d give to me for $80 that he didn’t even have in stock to show me, but it had 9 legs or something. I went with the other one which he gave to me for $49, which has 5 legs and the bar in the middle that will satisfy the warranty as well. And then, he was telling me about their mattress protector and told me that I have to buy it from them at the same time as the mattress in order for the warranty, so if I stain it or whatever I have proof of the protector. I didn’t believe him and I looked up the PLB website and it says any mattress pad or protector, but he said not PLB warranty, some ocha warranty or something. I’ve never heard that before and I didnt really like the way the protector felt, but I had no choice and he gave it to me at $40. So I didnt care at that point and just want a bed so I decided to just do it, and do the financing since it’s interest free for a year. Wells fargo ended up denying me because the salesman just started working there and entered all my info wrong, including writing down that I own instead of rent, etc. But, they wouldnt tell him what the reason was and I have to wait for the letter in the mail in order to appeal it. Now I’m pissed because not only do I have to wait even longer to get a bed, I now have to deal with this credit issue that should never have been a problem in the first place. Ugh I am so annoyed! Maybe this is all a blessing in disguse that I shouldnt buy from them anyway.

Do you know what the difference of the new model is? It feels completely different.

Hi beth819,

While the mattress price is good … you seem to be paying the price for dealing with them :slight_smile:

The new Nature model has 2" of Active Fusion “fast response” latex on top (which is Talalay latex with phase change materials in it which can help to regulate sleeping temperature) and then there is 2" of “regular” blended Talalay under this and then the 6" Talalay core. They also use phase change materials in the cover (the blue color is used by lots of manufacturers to imply “cool”). In other words they have removed the 1" layer on the bottom of the old models and added it to the second layer of latex in the new ones (the second layer is only 1" in the old versions). I don’t know the ILD’s in the new models but they are supposed to feel very similar and the firmness could be because the mattress is brand new and not a floor model which has broken in. The new versions are a little more expensive because Active fusion latex (Latex International which makes it used to call this Celsion but now they call it Talalay GL fast response and PLB calls it Active Fusion fast response) is a little more costly than “regular” Talalay even though regular Talalay is already very breathable and temperature regulating.

I won’t comment on much of the rest of what he said because I think we both know that he was only giving his “spiel” that he wants people to believe … regardless of the facts behind it. You probably threw him off because you know more than most of the people he is used to dealing with. While a stain can certainly void a warranty … not buying a mattress protector doesn’t.

The warranty he was probably talking about is the warranty that comes with the mattress protector itself (not the mattress) which will warranty that you don’t get a stain on your mattress if you use it correctly or they will replace both the protector and the mattress (or send you a cleaning kit to clean the stain which would be the “norm”) as long as they are purchased together. An example of a mattress protector warranty like this is here.

I can certainly understand your annoyance.


Hi Phoenix,

I finally got the mattress! I sorted everything out with the bank and they approved me, so I had to go back and buy it and then wait for delivery. They said 5-7 but it was more like 15 because they had to get it from the pure latex bliss factory in atlanta, etc. So I finally got it a couple days ago and I love it! The only problem I’m having is with the zippered cover. The cover has these little wave imprints in them and I feel them and they are uncomfortable. They sent me the wrong mattress protector, I wanted the thin cotton one and they gave me the vinyl one. It’s actually a better protector but I dont like it because it feels like a shower curtain. So I bought a mattress pad just now until they send me the other one, and I bought the pad to see if it would act as a barrier from the zipper cover. It works and I cant feel the little wave imprints, but the bed is already not as comfortable even though its only like 10oz of polyester fill in the pad! What can I do about this? I am so confused about the differences between the pad and protectors, etc. Thanks!

Hi Beth819,

That’s great news :slight_smile:

It’s always a good idea to use a mattress protector on any mattress to protect against stains and accidental spills (which can void a warranty) and to protect the mattress from the normal body fluids and oils that we release each night and from skin particles that can contribute to dust mite populations (they feed on skin particles). Having a protector that can easily be removed and washed will help keep your sleeping surface in a clean and hygienic condition. There are several different types of protectors and each of them have their own pros and cons so which protector is best would depend on the criteria that are most important and the preferences of each person but they basically boil down to three types (four if you consider the vinyl types which don’t breathe at all and I wouldn’t consider).

The first are the thinner ones that have a membrane in them which are waterproof and also somewhat breathable. I’m guessing this is the type you have. Some of them have more of a “shower curtain” feeling to them than others but the better ones seem to work fairly well and most people don’t find them to feel like vinyl or plastic although there are some who don’t like them. If they are too tight they can create a drum effect on the mattress surface. The better ones have the membrane attached to a cotton terry or better yet a stretch knit fabric and are fairly stretchy. Which brand do you have?

Two of the most popular of these are the Luna and the Protect-A-Bed. Gotcha Covered has an organic stretch knit version here and Naturepedic also has an organic flannel version here. The Protect-A-Bed luxury protector uses a stretch knit Tencel fabric (Eucalyptus) and is Oeko-Tex certified. A few more similar protectors in this category are listed at the end of post #15 here and in post #1 here. The advantage of the better ones of this type are that they are fairly thin and stretchy so they don’t affect the feel of the mattress much and they are also waterproof. Their disadvantage is that the membrane is not as breathable as other types of protectors and can contribute to sleeping warmer for some people. Some of them also have the “crinkly” feel as you mentioned that some people may notice more than others. I would also make sure that you follow the care instructions carefully with these so that they don’t melt or lose their waterproof properties when you clean them. Some of these also have waterproof protection on 5 sides rather than just the top surface (see post #2 here) which can help protect the mattress from spills or accidents that run down the side of the mattress although using one of these would have the tradeoff that the mattress can be less breathable and allow less airflow than using a protector that is only waterproof on the top surface.

The next type is a thinner wool mattress protector. Some of these have a cotton cover with a thin layer of wool inside. Others are wool puddle pads or moisture pads with felted or tightly woven or needle punched wool to make the wool water resistant but these do best with an absorbent sheet or a fitted cotton protector above them to absorb and spread out some of the moisture and add additional protection. Wool is very breathable and can help to cool down a mattress and control humidity and temperature. The cotton wicks moisture very well into the wool. These are only water resistant however (not waterproof) which for most people is fine. They are also a little thicker so they will have a little more affect on the mattress comfort layers.

One of the most popular of the cotton/wool protectors is the St Dormier although many of the online descriptions for this are incorrect and it has 4.5 oz/yd2 rather than the 7.5 oz/yd2 which many of the online descriptions indicate which may be why they have less effect on the “feel” of a mattress. Natura also makes one that has both a thinner layer of wool and a breathable membrane called the NaturaProtect here for those who want wool and a breathable/waterproof membrane but this would not be quite as breathable as wool alone. They also have a washable wool mattress pad that has 10 oz/sq yd of washable wool and an organic version (the picture here may be wrong) with 6 oz/sq yd of organic wool (not washable) without the membrane. Glideaway also has a cotton/wool mattress protector with a waterproof membrane here and Sleep & Beyond also has a cotton/wool protector with a waterproof membrane here which appears to have about 5 oz/yd of wool. Suite Sleep has a cotton/wool mattress protector and 45th Street Bedding also has one here that uses 9 oz/yd of wool without a membrane as well. Foam Sweet Foam also has one that is 1/2" thick with no membrane here. Thicker layers of wool in the protector may have more of an effect on the “feel” of a mattress but will also have more of the temperature regulating properties of wool.

Some examples of felted or tightly woven needle punched wool “puddle pads” that can be used directly under a sheet or in combination with a stretch cotton protector (for some additional protection) are here and here and here and here and here and here and here and there are two DIY versions here and here and here. These can be more water resistant (especially with a thicker cotton sheet or mattress protector) and are quite popular for those who are more focused on either natural or organic materials (depending on the wool that is used) but they not completely “waterproof” and they are also more costly and can affect the “feel” of the mattress more than a thinner protector.

The third main type is a cotton fabric protector. These are like a thick sheet that can absorb moisture and body oils but they are not water resistant like wool. If they are made as a stretch knit (like a jersey sheet) … they can be very flexible and breathable and comfortable and will have little affect on the feel of the mattress. Some high quality examples of this include the CozyPure protector here and the Berkeley Ergonomics protector here, and the Suite Sleep protector here, and the Naturepedic cotton flannel protector here and the Sleeptek protector here (also sold under the Sueno and Naturally Organic brand names at different stores) and the Purerest protector here and the Lifekind/OMI protector here and the Green Sleep Vasilo mattress protector here.

All of these are thinner protectors and are designed to have less effect on the mattress than thicker mattress pads that include various types of padding as part of their design. I would also make sure that you do some google searching for each one since there can be a wide range or prices at different stores or online retailers.

So the choices between mattress protectors are the membrane type … the wool type … or the cotton type. The tradeoffs involved are between how waterproof they are … how breathable they are … how much they will affect the feel of your mattress, the importance of natural materials, and of course cost. There is more about the choices and tradeoffs involved and the amount of “protection” that may be important in post #2 here and in post #5 here.

What you have is a mattress pad which is thicker than all of these protectors and is more like an extra padding layer on the mattress itself which can be used to add some surface softness or fine tune the feel of a mattress. These will also have much more effect on the feel and performance of the mattress and can reduce how much you sink in to the latex or other foam layers below them and on how well they can contour to the shape of your body. The thicker and less stretchy the mattress protector or pad is … the more it can affect the latex or other softer foam materials underneath it. Thicker layers above memory foam can also reduce the amount of body heat that reaches the memory foam and reduce its ability to soften with body temperature. Some mattress pads are also water resistant or waterproof and can also double up as a mattress protector as well. There is more about different types of mattress pads in post #10 here.

Finally you have toppers which are even thicker than mattress pads and are usually only used to add softness to the mattress and not protection (you would usually still need a protector with a topper).

You would probably do best with some kind of protector (not a mattress pad) and which is best depends on which combination of water resistance, breathability, and effect on the mattress that would be best for you. If you get the membrane type … then some of them have cotton on both sides of the membrane which may be enough to take away the feel of the cover… Otherwise a thicker wool or cotton protector may be better.

For those that have significant allergies then a mattress encasement that completely surrounds the mattress may be worth considering (even though some of them may reduce the ability of the mattress to breathe and ventilate) to protect against dust mite allergens (and/or bed bugs if this is an issue). There is more about mattress encasements in post #2 here and about dust mite allergies in post #2 here.


Thank you, that helped a lot! I had a feeling buying the mattress pad wasn’t a good idea and I immediately took it off because it was uncomfortable. The mattress protector that they gave me I guess is made by fabritech and is either one of these, I’m not sure which one because the insert on the front is different:

But the one they were supposed to give me is the cotton terry one that I’m assuming is this, but I dont know for sure:

I also remember seeing this signage on the wall, because I was there for a long time on the phone with the bank and I remember looking up and this sign was there, but it’s two different brands from what they actually had in the store:

The luna and the protect a bed look good, but do you think the cotton terry one they are sending me will be ok? I remembered not liking it because it felt kind of rough, but as you might remember I had to buy one with the mattress. So I figured I’d wash it and see if it softens. I basically got the protector for free since I made him lower the price of the bed for my inconvience, so it’s not like I have to keep that one when I get it if you think the other cotton terry ones would be better.

Also, is it necessary to have a mattress protector? I’m assuming that it is and I always had a mattress pad on my old bed, but since this is very high quality I wasnt sure if you need one or not. If I do, is it ok that I am not sleeping with one for right now until they send it? I’m obviously very paranoid and dont want anything to happen to my bed.

And just one more thing about the zippered cover, the one I have is this:

Do you see the wave pattern? So it’s little uncomfortable when I’m sleeping, like the imprints are pressing into me. This cover is different from the one I tested all those months ago. It looked like this one:

Or maybe even this one:

I just remember that the first thing I loved about it was how soft the cover was, so I’m disappointed that it’s not the same. I see on their website that you can order additional covers, but I dont even want to know how much that is. Would it be wise to take the cover off or even turn it inside out? I dont know, I guess I could try to get used to it but for right now it’s just the one thing I’m not happy with.


Hi Beth,

I didn’t even realize that PLB had so many different covers until I looked closer at the pictures.

I don’t know the fabritech from personal experience but I think the terry protector will probably be fine … especially if it’s washed to take out the initial stiffness and with that and your sheets over the cover I would think that the cover patterns won’t be as noticeable either (and the cover will also soften somewhat as well over the first few weeks).

I think a mattress protector is necessary yes for a more hygenic sleeping surface and to protect from accidents, body oils, and spills and also to protect the mattress warranty (even a little stain will void the warranty).

In the meantime I would perhaps use a blanket or something as a temporary protector and be a little careful, just to play it safe.


Hi Phoenix,

I finally got the right mattress protector, but it seems like no matter which one I try it takes away from the feel of the latex too much. I wouldn’t mind trying one of the ones you suggested online, but from what I see those arent returnable?

Also, it’s been about 2 months since I got my bed and at first I loved it, well I would love anything compared to my old bed lol. But now I’m not sure if it’s soft enough. It’s not hurting my back or anything, but sometimes if I lay in one position too long i’ll get a slight soreness but then it’ll go away. I’m just wondering if that softer model, the beautiful I think it was, would be better for me or if that’s too soft. I just notice that I’m lying on top of the mattress and I’d probably prefer to sink in a bit more, but not too much, or just have a bit more of a cushy feel. I don’t know how long you’re supposed to try it before you definitely know. Like 3 months? Does the latex get softer overtime? I was also thinking maybe it’s the cover as well that is making it more firm and maybe I should be looking into a softer cover? Not sure, I’d just rather avoid the hassle of going through this whole process again and exchanging a bed that might be worse for me, etc. Any suggestions?


Hi Beth819,

In most cases a protector is considered a personal item and isn’t returnable but there are exceptions that would be on each individual site. If you buy one from a big box store (Walmart, Sams club, Costco etc) they they often have a good refund policy. Some places like some of the Amazon retailers also have a return policy (especially if they are fulfilled by amazon) but make sure you check the details because in many cases it excludes shipping or has fees involved.

The Beautiful has thicker and softer comfort layers than what you have (the old Nature) and it would be more risky in terms of alignment. You may just need a “touch” more softness (which would generally be a thin topper in the range or 1-2" and this would be less risky than going with a whole new mattress with thicker comfort layers. In most cases you would have a good sense of things after a month or so but sometimes it can be a bit longer. When your symptoms “stabilize” and don’t seem to be changing much then this is a good time to consider some fine tuning if its necessary.

You can see some of the better sources for toppers in post #4 here.

Yes … all foam materials get softer over time … but latex softens more slowly than other types of foam.

The cover on the Nature is a stretch knit so this is unlikely to be the issue. It’s more likely that it could be connected to your protector or sheets than the cover. I don’t know what type of protector you have but some of the thin membrane types are less stretchy than others and they could be part of the issue as well.

A shredded latex topper that has good value and can add some softness and has less risk of alignment issues is the Seven Comforts here but they only have queen available (I can’t remember what size your mattress is).


Hi Phoenix,

What ILD would I need for the topper? And doesnt a topper defeat the purpose of buying a new mattress in the first place? Would the topper go on top of the mattress or would I put it under the mattress cover? Thanks.

Hi beth819,

There is really no way for someone else to know this for certain but a more detailed description of all the symptoms you have, where the symptoms are happening in your body, the sleeping positions involved, how long it takes to produce the symptoms, any other external circumstances that may be connected, information about your normal posture, any posture issues you may have in your history, information about any pain you may be prone to, the “degree” of change you are looking for, the type of material you would prefer in a topper, and any other information that may be helpful, would help make a guess a little more accurate. I realize that this may seem very complex but I wanted to provide a sense of how complex a seemingly simple question can be and the type of information that can make a difference in the answer. In order to have any real accuracy, and with all the variables that could be involved, some very detailed information is the only thing that can somewhat make up for the inability to feel what you are feeling on a mattress.

Not at all. A sleeping system with a base mattress and a topper hs many advantages and in some cases can be ideal because the topper can be replaced without replacing the mattress if it wears out faster or if your needs or preferences change. It has many advantages over a mattress alone because it provides the ability to change the feel and performance or “fine tune” a mattress without changing the whole mattress or to make other changes in the future if your preferences or circumstances require it.

If you are looking for more softness/pressure relief and want a very “general” suggestion that may suit a fairly wide range of people and circumstances, then a 2" soft topper would probably be an “average” choice for most people. Again though, this can vary depending on exactly what symptoms you are trying to solve, what you consider to be soft or firm (each person has a different definition), and some “measurement” of how are from your ideal you are in terms of pressure relief or alignment. The Seven Comforts topper here is a good “average” choice if an extra couple of inches of softness is the goal and the shredded latex helps the shoulders to sink in a little more while the hips/pelvis are more supported (which can mean less risk of alignment issues). Unfortunately it’s only available in queen at the moment and I don’t know what size your mattress is (I usually don’t remember the size of mattress each person I’ve talked with on the forum has unless it’s in the last post or two).

It would generally go over the mattress (not in the mattress cover) and then your mattress protector and bedding would go over the topper.


Hi Phoenix,

I will try to answer your questions as best I can lol. The symptoms that I’m having are either in my lower back or mid back, and it’s kind of this dull ache or weakness. I am not having the herninated disc pain like before, well I had it one day and it went away fairly quickly. Overall my back is way better. I’ve noticed that when I’m sitting up in bed, on my laptop or watching tv, that my butt sinks in but my legs dont. And when I’m lying in bed, im not sinking as far as when I’m sitting up. I’m assuming thats because when I sit up I’m applying more weight than when lying down. I also noticed last night that I feel my torso sink in, but not the lower part of my body. Not sure about my shoulders, I will test for that tonight. I also noticed that since I sleep with a pillow between my legs for better alignment with my back, that my hips don’t really sink in, but when i take the pillow away it sinks in a bit but not much. I tried to sleep without the pillow between my legs but it’s just a habit now and ended up putting it back. I’m really busy at my new job so since I’ve spent more time at home during the holiday’s I guess I’ve had more time to notice the bed, combined with the adjustment period. As far as my posture goes, I don’t sit up straight enough, I slouch quite a bit.

What I’ve noticed so far is that my alignment seems ok even though I’m not sinking in far enough. Like, the bed is firm without causing pain, but it is causing slight aches. If I had to guess, I’d say I’d like something softer but not too soft to mess up alignment, like you said. I guess I could try a 1" inch topper of I’m guessing 19 ild? But I just cant get over the fact that I’m paying so much for a bed already and since it’s not perfect for me, I have to add a topper. It just makes me think of my old bed being so bad that I had to add a topper to mask the problems. I know that’s not the case here since the base is all latex, but I’d honestly rather start all over and get it right with one bed then having to add. You’re saying that the beautiful would be too soft? Is there any other mattress (doesnt have to be PLB) that would better suit my needs? As I’m lying here typing this, I’m on my side and I’m not sinking in at all, or at least it doesnt feel like it. It feels like I’m just lying on top of a firm mattress and not sinking in if that makes sense? Sorry, Im just trying to think of how to describe it. And I wanted to love this mattress and it be the end of my search, and I’m upset that I even have to think about this again.

I also hate the cover with the “dog bone” type pattern and if I do decide to keep the mattress I have to get a softer cover. The imprints bother me way too much and are uncomfortable.

Just thought of something else, the PLB nutrition, is that in between the nature and beautiful in terms of softness? Was looking at the different models and it’s listed in between the two but didn’t know if it would be firmer or softer than what I have. Thanks again.

Hi Beth819,

I did a review of all your previous posts to refresh my memory of your experiences and to see if there were any “clues” to what may be the best next step. I’m posting some of your “specs” and background information here first to make them easier to remember (and save me from looking them up again if necessary) and I’ve also mixed in some of your previous comments with your comments in your last post when they were particularly relevant and “connected”.

So first of all some of your specs …

[quote]I’m 5’7 and 135 pds, and a side/back sleeper,

I have a bulging disc in my lower back.

thinner and taller

I’m upgrading to a queen[/quote]

When you started you had one primary goal in mind (the back pain) and sometimes because this was so important you were mainly focused on this rather than pressure relief issues.

[quote]First, about my back pain- the reason I started this whole mattress journey was because I was waking up everyday with constant back pain when usually it’s not really everyday or if it is, exercises, heat, advil, etc will help. I mean there’s always some kind of pain there but it hasn’t been this bad since I first injured it a few years ago.

Anyway, with the mattresses I didn’t like I could tell right away or after a few minutes that it’s not good because the lower back pain is either worse or still there, so I eliminate it right away. But with the ones that I liked, I said that they were “ok” because I didn’t completely love it, but it wasn’t hurting my back, but then my back hurt later on so I wasn’t sure if it was trying a bunch of mattresses or what.

The issue with the nature’s rest is that after I left my back still hurt. I know I can’t make a decision based on that, but it’s still a bit concerning when the only reason I am doing this in the first place is to help alleviate my back pain. The reason why I love my cousin’s mattress is because after laying on it for even 5-10 mins makes a significant difference in my back pain. So like you said I know the high quality materials are there, but I’m not 100% sure the pressure relief is there

Does the nature’s rest provide good pressure relief in my shoulders? I didn’t even test for this. My neck is messed up anyway and this whole time I’ve just been focused on making sure my back feels good which is what is most important to me. I can test that out tomorrow.

Yes, I can connect back pain to when I sleep on my mattress, other mattresses, etc. If it’s hard or uncomfortable I can tell right away and won’t be able to sleep and it’ll hurt even worse in the morning. I’ll also feel pain when I’m more active, poor shoe support, etc. I can tell the difference in my back pain and which thing causes it if that makes any sense.

I’m pretty much a side sleeper, with only ocassionally on my back when I can’t take the pain anymore on my left side, and even then I end up going back on my side. But I am in my bed a lot on my back, whether that’s watching tv, on my laptop, on the phone, etc. But sleeping wise, I’d say that if there was no back pain I’d be a pure side sleeper. Don’t know if that makes a difference, but I know I didn’t describe that before so I’m adding it now.[/quote]

So your primary goal was was the back pain which has already greatly improved …

This is great news and generally indicates that your alignment is good and that what you have is a good place to build from. Your primary goal has been mostly accomplished and now the secondary goal is one of pressure relief and from here it may just be a matter of fine tuning the comfort layers.

I would also keep in mind that because of the complexity of your background situation (both existing conditions and “posture habits”) and because a mattress may not be the only cause or solution to your back issues … there may be no “perfect” or “complete” solution. All in all I think you have already done very well.

In essence you found a mattress that mostly solved your most important issue and found it at a remarkable price.

Given all of this … and noticing some of the same tendencies as when you were looking for the mattress and during our conversations … I think you may be “overthinking” and “second guessing” things a bit and focusing on things like how much you “should” be sinking in or what “should be” happening rather than on what is actually happening and your actual symptoms and experience. You may also be “assessing” your mattress based on how it “performs” for other things which it is not designed for. Your body is the best indicator of what you need rather than your mind :slight_smile:

From what you’ve said … the actual “symptoms” that I can see (by symptoms I mean actual pain or discomfort) are that you have some lower or mid back pain and a “dull ache or weakness”.

This is one of the “other things” that a mattress is not designed for. This is normal because when you are sitting more of your weight is concentrated in a smaller area and the mattress is designed for your weight distribution when you are lying down not sitting up. This may also be contributing to some of your issues if you are “hunched” over a computer in bed or straining to some degree to keep your back straight when you are doing things other than sleeping. An adjustable bed can help if you do a lot of sitting up, reading, watching TV, or working on your computer when you are in bed because it will give you something to lean back against and help support your back, lessen pressure, and help with how far you sink in when you are sitting up without good back support (and probably hunching over a computer). This would be the same for most people especially with latex which is so elastic. Your weight distribution profile when you are sitting is very different from when you are lying down and a mattress is only designed for lying down.

By lower part of your body do you mean legs? Is this causing any symptoms of discomfort? Your torso (or trunk) goes from the top of your shoulders to the bottom of your butt so I’m guessing you mean the lower part of your torso is what you feel sinking in (and again this is normal because your hips/pelvis/butt is where most of our weight is concentrated). Is this happening when you are on your back? It would be very unusual if some other part of your torso was sinking in too far because most of your weight is concentrated in the lower part of your torso in the area of your pelvis. The lighter parts wouldn’t normally sink in as much. As a matter of fact … one of the challenges with a mattress is to “allow” the upper part of your torso and shoulders to sink in enough while preventing the lower part (hips/pelvis) from sinking in to far. Some clarification here would be helpful but again … your symptoms are more important than your “thoughts” about whether you are sinking in too far or not enough unless it causes actual pain or discomfort.

Sleeping with a pillow between your knees on your side is a good idea. It’s not clear to me though if there is a “symptom” involved here either. Again … how far it “feels like” you are sinking isn’t as important as whether there are actual “symptoms” (either pressure relief or alignment). Do you have pressure symptoms or other pain or discomfort in the hip area when you are lying or sleeping on your side?

This along with sitting in the bed could also be connected with the discomfort (dull ache and weakness).

If your alignment is OK then it generally means that you actually are sinking in far enough but not too far (at least in the hip/pelvis area). Again … how far it appears you are sinking in isn’t as important as any symptoms you are experiencing.

OK … now this is helpful and I think this is heading in the right direction. It seems to indicate the need for a bit more softness and thickness in the comfort layers and is “symptom oriented” which is helpful.

Keep in mind that there may be no perfect solution with your pre-existing conditions.

It really doesn’t matter if you buy a new mattress that has an extra inch or two in it (which would be more costly than a mattress with an inch or two less) or if the extra inch or two is in a topper. Having it as a topper has many advantages as I mentioned. For example the next model up in the PLB line is the Nutrition (which is softer) and based on the prices here you can see that the Nature here (this is the new model) is 10" of latex and is $2469 while the Nutrition here (also the new model) is 11" of latex and is $2749 or $280 more for just an extra inch of latex. The Beautiful here has one more inch at 12" and is $3269 or another step up of $520 for just one more inch. The additional price of each mattress would be much less than adding a topper of the same thickness and the topper would have many advantages. One of the most popular mattresses they have is the Pamper here for $1799 which is only 8" of latex (with a 2" comfort layer) which is a good mattress to add a topper and build your own comfort layer. This mattress and a 3" latex topper (if you purchase a topper with good value instead of one that is too costly) would be less than buying the 11" Nutrition for example. This is a more European way of putting together a sleeping system and it has many advantages over buying a whole “finished” mattress.

This isn’t “masking problems” but “building and customizing a sleeping system” which is very different. I personally wouldn’t start all over again which I think would be very risky and possibly costly given the success you’ve had already and when one of your most important goals has already been mainly accomplished (good alignment and back pain much better) … especially when another mattress may be even worse for alignment and you may end up with endless rounds of mattress exchanges … each one with a possible new set of “symptoms” … and each one adding to your cost and frustration. I think you are probably close to your best possible solution and “fine tuning” may be much more effective than starting all over again…[/quote]

.[quote]Yes, when laying on my cousin’s mattress the pain goes away every time. It’s crazy. She lives in ny, so when I go to visit her my back pain is gone the whole time I’m there. If I’m walking a lot, which is different than what I’m used to living in florida, the pain will come back but nowhere near as bad, and if I lay down for a few minutes after that I’m fine.

I do know the name of the model, it’s King Koil, Aruba

You’re saying that the beautiful would be too soft?[/quote]

Because of the complexity of your situation … only your testing and longer term experience can know this for sure (and again it would depend on your symptoms). As you know … when I tried to track own the specs of the Aruba previously I wasn’t successful (King Koil wouldn’t tell me) but if memory serves me right it had thicker and softer comfort layers. Based on your experiences though, while the Beautiful also has thicker and softer comfort layers … it may be too much of a good thing and I would guess that in terms of alignment it would be risky yes. I think you are much better off doing what you are doing by first solving one problem (alignment) and then step by step solving your “secondary” issues (pressure relief) so that the odds are much better of getting to the best possible solution for both.

Again … you would need to do more testing and then once again your longer term experience would be the only real answer to this. Suggesting a mattress layering based on “theory” would not be helpful IMO when you would need to test it in person and then actually sleep on it and let your body tell you what works. You are “outside of the averages” where any theory can be effective.

It makes sense but again this is coming from your mind and is not a symptom that is being experienced by your body. Are you feeling too much pressure or pain in some area as you are lying there? Again how far you think you are sinking in (and this can be “deceiving”) is not a symptom. Your feeling that you are lying on a firm mattress is much more helpful than whether you think you are sinking in far enough. In other words … “it feels too firm and I can feel too much pressure in “this” (fill in the blank) specific part of my body when I am lying on my side” would be a symptom. Again though … bear in mind that a mattress is designed to perform when you are lying down completely relaxed not when you are lying on your side typing on a computer.

Again it seems to me that it’s just a matter of fine tuning and considering where you were coming from and the challenges you are facing I think that a “fine tuning process” is perfectly normal and even desirable. IMO, small incremental steps are a better approach than bigger steps all at once (such as exchanging a mattress) which could risk what you have already accomplished (and the “value” you were able to find). You are already most of the way there (good alignment and only a little more comfort and pressure relief seems to be needed) and given the complexity of your situation, I think that’s pretty good … especially when you haven’t chosen a mattress that is too soft and can’t be “fixed”.

Just like the mattress pad from before … a topper would solve this problem as well because it would be over the cover and you wouldn’t feel it.

Overall … based on your descriptions and history … it seems to me that you just need a little more softness and thickness. It’s also important to make sure that what you do next doesn’t once again risk the return of your back pain issues. Because of this, if I was in your shoes I would probably try the Seven Comforts topper I mentioned before (and luckily queen is the only size available). It would give you a little more thickness/softness with less risk because its shredded so it may have less alignment risk and yet give you the benefits of a thicker softer topper as well.

While there are no guarantees of course (only your body will tell you how well it works and your situation is well outside of any “averages” that can be predicted) … the price is right and our past and current conversations and your experience on a mattress that probably had thicker softer comfort layers indicates that it could be very helpful in terms of improving pressure relief with less risk of changing one set of “symptoms” for another. It would also be the most cost effective solution (it’s very good value) because exchanging the mattress may end up costing you more (in terms of frustration, time, and money) and still wouldn’t have any guarantee of working any better than doing some fine tuning to what you already have and that has proven itself in “real life” to be close to what you need.


PS: In addition to an adjustable bed … it may also be worth considering a body pillow (you can search google to see what I mean) which may help prevent some of the excess bending, hunching, twisting, or strain that may be aggravating your situation and help provide better support when you are doing some of your other activities in bed besides sleeping :slight_smile:

Wow, thank you for writing all of that! But, I think all of that should be put on hold for now because what I was afraid of happening, happened, which is my back hurts today. :frowning: I kind of had a feeling when I started noticing the weakness, but I just figured it would subside since I’ve been doing so well since I got the bed. It’s in the same area as usual, the lower left where my disc problem is. So now what?? LOL. It’s actually not funny but humor is the only thing keeping me sane right now.

To respond to some of your comments though, I know I do overthink things, but when I was describing “sinking in” or not sinking in enough, it was because I thought it would be easier to understand in those terms. I wasnt overthinking at all for the past month and a half, until recently when I started noticing the firmness of the bed and my aches, etc. So what I’ve specifically noticed is that lying on it feels firm. I didn’t think it was too firm until now when I started to have soreness and now pain today. I can feel that my body perfectly straight, but that doesnt mean I’m comfortable. It’s not uncomfortable but it is starting to bother me more. When I was referring to my torso sinking in, I didnt mean my lower body, I meant I can feel lying on my side, my upper torso, like my chest down to my belly button being cushioned, “sinking in” in a bit. I dont feel that in my hips or legs, which I originally thought its ok if my hips dont feel cushioned because it’s keeping me straight, but I guess my body disagrees now lol.

When I mentioned the part about sitting up in bed, I didnt mean that it was causing pain, I shouldve said that I like the way it feels, more cushy, then when Im lying down, which is firmer. Sorry for the confusion. Sitting up definitely doesnt bother me.

So based on my back pain now, do you still suggest just adding the topper or trying something different now? Since you think the beautiful would be too soft, I wouldnt mind trying out the nutirition if they even have it in store to test it out. I know that they would be able to order me the old one and at the same price, so if it’s just a matter of exchanging, do you still think adding a topper is better? I looked at the seven comforts topper and I didnt really like the feel of the shredded latex. There was only site that I saw had a 1" 19 ILD topper, if that’s even what I need. I know the rest of the sites have one 22-24 size. I was just assuming I was going to need a 19" topper since that’s what the first comfort layer is in my bed, but I have no idea if that’s the right thinking?

I guess the first step is to see what your thoughts are related to my back pain now. Thanks again for all your help, I am sure you are sick of me by now lol.

Hi beth819,

I think that your current circumstances highlight even more the value of a more “modular” sleeping system.

In most cases when there are pre-existing sleeping conditions … the symptoms will go in cycles and change from time to time for reasons that have nothing to do with your mattress. In these cases … having options about a topper (or even toppers if necessary) can give you options that can help you with the different times that may have different symptoms.

It seems to me that your base mattress is providing good alignment and if anything only needs more “comfort” and pressure relief. this is a much better situation to be in than if your base mattress is too soft in the support layers or too thick and soft in the comfort layers. In this case you would be forced to get a new mattress which still wouldn’t be “modular” and may only be suitable some of the time and not others.

So I would still consider the same options unless there is clear evidence that there is some flaw in the basic assumption (that your mattress isn’t providing you with good support and alignment).

Your comments that it appears to feel too firm (and you want more of a sinking in feeling like when you are sitting on the mattress) seems to point in that direction as well.

While only you can decide whether to test the Nutrition or the Beautiful … I doubt that they would be available at the same value (and I could be wrong here) and I also think that a firmer “base” with a topper (or even several down the road as your circumstances change from time to time) would provide a more flexible and suitable set of options.

There are people who even pay “extra” for this type of flexibility and it is a much more effective solution IMO to changing needs and circumstances than any single mattress that can’t be adjusted when necessary.

While your experience may be different … it certainly doesn’t feel “lumpy” or uncomfortable … at least in my perception (and I think in Coventry’s perception who also has several and likes them as much as I do). You can see more information and her great review (along with some of my comments as well) about it in this thread.

Failing that … another inch or two of softer latex (19 ild or so and perhaps even less) would be another option. 1" would be “safer” but it may not be quite enough (depending on your best estimate of how far away from your ideal you think you are).

If you need just a little more softness … then an inch may be fine. If you need a fair bit more softness … then 2" may be the way to go.

There may even be an argument for 14 ILD which is the softest latex available. Pure latex bliss has toppers that are 14 - 15 ILD (in 2" and 3" thicknesses) so you could test this in the store on top of the mattress you have to see how you do with it. Even though latex at this softness level wouldn’t be as durable as firmer versions … it would be well worth the lower durability in exchange for years of better sleep if it suited you better. I’m not suggesting this specific topper (there are better sources with better value unless their prices are unusually low) … but only suggesting that you test it to get a sense of how it feels.

Again … I would always choose a more “modular” system when possible over a mattress where you have no ability to adjust or adapt it with the changing needs of more difficult circumstances or conditions. There is little that a “complete” mattress can do that a more modular mattress/topper system can’t do better.

One other option you have is to purchase various “cheaper” toppers from the big box stores as an experiment. This can give you the ability to return them if they don’t work out with no risk and once you have found the one that seems to work the best … then you can use it as a guideline for a more permanent or higher quality replacement


Hi Phoenix,

It definitely makes sense what you are saying. Like depending on how my back is I can remove the topper or leave it, etc. I searched those links for toppers, and every one of them that has 19 ILD or lower has a restocking fee and not that many days to try it out. That’s not good because I dont know if I need 1" or 2" and there’s no way to know until I try it out, so by the time I pay a couple restocking fees, plus shipping fees, that adds up. But the only site I even see with 19 ILD or lower, is Do you know of any other sites? I would definitely try the topper but that’s the only one I’m seeing so far. I can also go into a store a try the PLB 14" one just to get a feel, but it wouldnt be exact because they have the newer models now which to me feels firmer with that new blue cover. Thanks.

Hi Beth819,

post #4 hereThe better sources of toppers I’m aware of are in .

Several of them sell 19 ILD but 14 would be a little harder to find (although SLAB carries them as you mentioned).

I would start with testing the PLB 14 ILD 2" topper to see how it feels for you (even though 14 ILD is very soft and would be less durable, it may be closer to the Aruba you used to like although I’m not certain). The new PLB line is supposed to be fairly similar in feel to the old and the extra firmness may be because they are so new and not broken in yet. It would still give you a chance to get a good sense of the feel of the topper though.

Toppers are usually non returnable “personal” products or in some cases returnable with fees or shipping costs involved but some testing may give you enough confidence to order one anyway. There is also the possibility of toppers at the big box stores that may give you a way to experiment without risk.


Hi Phoenix,

The only site I’m seeing with 19 ILD from that post is sleep like a bear. There’s one more, foam order that says their soft is 17-25ILD, and I emailed them to see exactly what that means. Is it possible for an ILD to be a range like that, or is it that they don’t know exactly which one it is? All the other sites from what I’m seeing are 22-24 ILD. When you say the big box stores which are you referring to?

I stopped by z mattress tonight and I tried out the topper on top of the new hybrid, celebrate? Do you even know what that is? I know I tried the 2" topper but I don’t know which ILD it is. The woman had no clue, but she said the other store has the nature there and they have different firmeness levels in the topper, so I can go test them out. Is that true or is there only 14ILD and then your choice of 2"or 3’? I just need to know my info before I go back in there lol. Anyway, it definitely felt softer and more cushy, but I’m worried that that might be too soft. So I’m assuming I’d need a 19, but in 1" or 2" I’m not sure. Unless I get something lower than 19 in 1"? I don’t know I’m so confused lol. Thanks.

Also, I took the zippered cover off last night just to see the difference and it is much more comfortable without it. It’s a tiny bit softer but definitely more comfortable. I know I probably shouldnt be sleeping on it without that cover, but I just wanted to see. So hopefully if I get a topper that will solve that problem.

Hi Beth819,

ILD is always in a range (even when it has a single number) but Talalay has a narrower and more consistent range in a single layer than Dunlop. ILD’s are never exact. For example … Latex international measures the firmness in 9 different places in a core and then they are averaged to create the rating. If the average is closest to 19 then that’s the rating. If it’s closest to one of the other numbers then that’s the rating. Sometimes the average of a 19 ILD core will be lower and sometimes higher but everything in the same range are all called 19 ILD. Differences of a few ILD aren’t noticeable. Dunlop has an even wider range of ILD’s across the surface than Talalay and will also vary from the top of a core to the bottom.

I know that Dreamfoam and both sell 19 ILD toppers but I’m not sure of the thicknesses they have available. SleepEz could also order one if they don’t have any in stock. If you call any of the listed merchants they will often have products available that aren’t listed on their site.

The layering of the celebrate is as follows …

3" ActiveFUSION Fast Natural Talalay
2" Natural Talalay Latex
8" Bonded Foam/Latex

Most of the PLB toppers are 14 - 15 ILD and I haven’t heard of any firmer versions but that may not be correct. As far as I know they come in regular Talalay, and Active Fusion fast response Talalay. The merchant should know and if they don’t they should call PLB to find out (they should be chasing down the information they don’t have that you want).

I would probably be a little worried about that as well. At that softness it won’t be as durable either. As far as height … if you want “just a little or “just a touch” more softness then I would go with 1”. If you want something that would be more noticeable with a fair bit more softness … then I would go with 2".

That’s about as 'accurate" as I can get because I can’t really feel what you are feeling … although my sense is 2" if I had to guess.