Side Sleeper looking for Latex Mattress

I checked out the latex mattresses at Foam Sweet Foam today. They have things more complicated. They had 12" mattresses made up from four 3" pieces which come in different firmness. So as an example they have them setup: Medium-Medium-Firm-ExtraFirm.
These can be switched around anyway that you choose. Then to make things more difficult you can also choose all Talalay or all Dunlop materials. I think the Dunlop was also Organic. The Talalay mattress seemed to have a softer feel even with the same firmness.

I liked the feel of the medium for the most part. I’m not sure which I would choose between Dunlop and Talalay
The problem is they can feel great in the showroom but until I sleep for a full night on one I will never know if it will work.
It takes about 5 hrs in the bed until I feel the discomfort. `

Hi jet757f,

I would choose the one that feels best to you. They are both high quality versions of latex but as you probably know from your testing they have a different feel. Talalay is lighter and more lively while Dunlop is denser and a little less lively. The choice between them would be a preference.

Phoenix

Sleep EZ has the same configurations on their 13" Latex bed. I’m going to have to go back to Foam Sweet Foam and make a decision on Dunlop or Talalay if I do go with Sleep EZ.

Sleep EZ has the 100 Day refund. I Just want to make sure there is no hassle doing this.
I’m open to changing layers but then it starts using up the 100 days if I have to return the whole mattress.

How much do each of those 3" sections weigh?

I like the Habitat return policy of 365 days better but you seem to be paying for it. The prices are high.

Hi jet7571,

While each person may have a different “personal value equation”, I normally suggest that a 20% difference between a local manufacturer and an online manufacturer in an otherwise apples to apples comparison would be roughly equivalent “value” because of the benefits of being able to deal locally and test a specific mattress in person but of course each person may be different in the number they use or which of the different options or features offered by each manufacturer is most important or “valuable” to them.

In most cases people will have determined their best configuration well before this time but either way (whether you are exchanging layers or just using or re-arranging the layers you have) you would be “using up” the time for a refund. I’m not clear on why one would affect the other when it’s just an additional option. A refund is normally the last option and used only when there is no configuration that will work and it would be rare for someone to have to use it, especially when they’ve actually had the chance to test a mattress in person and it’s only a matter of “fine tuning” th layering if necessary. It’s an option of last resort in other words that would be by far the least common scenario. It’s always a “hassle” to return a mattress though not so much because of the cost involved but because of the time involved in re-packing it and sending it back and then having to start all over again from scratch.

That would depend on the size and on the softness/firmness and on the type of latex (Dunlop is heavier than Talalay and firmer is heavier than softer) and on whether the layer was split or a whole layer. As an example if the latex was 5 lb/cu ft then a 3" queen size layer would be 8.33 cubic feet which times 5 would weigh about 42 lbs.

I personally can’t imagine the vast majority of people taking that long to decide whether their mattress could be configured the way they liked it (and especially with Habitat which doesn’t offer custom layering that can be re-arranged or exchanged anyway so your purchase choice would be the only option you had) but like anything else if someone believed this was important enough then they may be willing to pay the premium involved either in price or in the lack of layering options.

Phoenix

The reason the return/refund is so important to me is because because even though it feels good to me in the showroom doesn’t necessarily mean it is going to work for me. The bed that I sleep on right now feels great when I first go to sleep but after around 5 or 6 hrs I start to feel the numbness on my side. So my point is that trying it out in the showroom doesn’t really make a difference. I need to sleep on it for 8 hours before I know if it will work for me. Whether changing the layers on the bed will work is unknown at this time. So I need the option to return or I’m stuck with a mattress that is no better than the one I already have.

Hi Jet757f,

This is probably true if you test a mattress for it’s “subjective” feel in a showroom and for those who do this the odds are probably less than random chance of making the most appropriate choice (see the results of the study here). This is very different however than testing a mattress more objectively and specifically using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post where the odds are much higher of making a good choice … although they are still not 100%.

Even here though … no matter how you test a mattress … there is still some degree of risk that you will make the “wrong” choice. Then the question becomes how long will it take you to know and what are your options if this happens.

Accurate and objective testing in a showroom for the most part results in a choice that is “close enough” that only “fine tuning” will be needed. Regardless of this though … it would be very rare if someone didn’t know whether a mattress was suitable for them after sleeping on it for 30 days or so and in the “worst case” in the range of 60 - 90 days. If it turns out that a mattress isn’t suitable after this long … then if you have purchased a mattress that is “all or nothing” … the only option you have is to return it for a refund or exchange it for another mattress if either of these are an option. If the mattress has the ability to customize it to different degrees … then the odds are much higher that you will find a layering arrangement that can adjust either the pressure relief or support of the mattress that will work very well without having to return the mattress. Don’t forget that there are only two basic functions of a mattress. Even if the layers you have don’t work … then you would also have the ability to exchange a layer and with the help of a good manufacturer you would be able to use their knowledge and your experience and feedback from sleeping on the mattress to help you decide what to change. This way you would still have a mattress to sleep on with very high odds that you will find the best layering. Even if this doesn’t work … and the odds of this are very low … then you would still have the option for a return and refund just like an “all or nothing” choice.

It would be difficult for me to imagine that someone would actually sleep on a mattress beyond 90 days or so and wait a year before deciding to return it for a refund. Why sleep on an unsuitable mattress for that long? If they did get to this place they would be starting all over again with nothing to sleep on in the meantime unless they kept their old mattress for a year.

Each person of course needs to decide on which parts of their “personal value equation” are most important to them and there is no “right or wrong” in this but it’s paying that kind of a premium for a mattress which has many fewer options available and where the 365 days wouldn’t be of practical benefit anyway for the vast majority of people wouldn’t be the “best value” choice for most people. I understand the need to sleep on a mattress for a period of time to know for certain regardless of whether you have tested it in a showroom or slept on it in person for a period of time … but 365 days to me is more about marketing than it is about reality.

Phoenix

I’m really leaning towards Sleep-EZ right now. I just talked to Shaun again with more questions. I’m planning on the 13" with the first two layers Medium Medium Talalay and the 2nd two layers Firm, Extra Firm Dunlop.

I’m really close to ordering just have to get the courage :unsure:

Thanks again for all your help and advice. It is really appreciated.

UPDATE: Ordered the Select Sleep Organic 13000 from SleepEZ. Will let you know how it works.

So I had ordered my Select Sleep 13000 from Sleep Ez on Monday evening. I got a call the next morning from Shaun
verifying the order. After talking more he recommended going with all Natural Talalay. Med-Med-Firm-ExtraFirm. Originally I was going to have the firm layers in Dunlop.

I received the mattress today (Fri) in 5 boxes. One of them had the mattress case by itself.
I put it together by myself so it was quite a job.
What made it alittle more difficult is that my low profile foundation is below that the wood frame of my bed.
So I could not put the side of the mattress case over the sides of the foundation per the instructions.
I had to put the bottom layer down and seat it in the mattress case with many adjustments.
The other layers went up fairly easy once the first layer was down. I thought it would be difficult to zip the case around
the latex layers but it was actually fairly easy.

The mattress looks and feels great. It does feel alittle firm so I’m glad that Shaun recommended all Talalay.
I won’t know if the mattress will work for me until I sleep on it for 8 hrs.
I really want it to work because I would not enjoy trying to pack it up and send it back.

I will give my final verdict in a couple of days.

Please let us know how it works for you. I myself have been looking and haven’t made it to fsf, but will definately try next week. Of all the places I’ve been around I actually liked the old school spring with a foam topping on it. I did find a place that had a solid latex 8 or 9" bed, but it wasn’t anything special for me.

Hi jet757f,

I’d also keep in mind that it may take you a few weeks to adjust to a new sleeping surface so a few days may not be long enough for the mattress to break in much less for you to adjust to it. One of the advantages to the layering you have is that you can rearrange the layers if you need to.

I’m looking forward to your feedback.

Phoenix

Yes if it seems too firm I may exchange the top medium for a soft.
I will let you know how it works out.
Thanks

I’m still have the same hip/leg soreness as my last mattress.
It happens after around 5 hrs of sleep.

I called Shaun today and he is sending a soft layer for me to try.
If I still have the problem I will switch all the layers around to see if anything works.

The soft layer was no help. Same problem.

Unfortunately I’m going to have to send the mattress back. It is a real pain trying to get the mattress layers into the boxes as I found out with the one layer I returned.

So now I am back where I started with no idea on what kind of mattress would help me.
I guess I will try memory foam and the select sleep at a hotel.

Hi jet7571,

I think you may be losing an opportunity to help you understand why you are having some of the issues you are having. Regardless of whether the mattress you have in some combination of layering ends up being the ideal for you … I think that the more “random” approach you are taking or considering may not help you get any closer to a solution to your sleeping issues. I have several suggestions that may be helpful in both the short term but more importantly in the longer term.

First … I would suggest that it may be worth considering that there may be other issues involved in the “symptoms” you are experiencing that may have little to do with any mattress. Mattresses can’t solve physiological or medical issues although they can certainly make some difference in the comfort you experience while you are working on them in other ways.

Second … I think you are making changes (and exchanges) too quickly without giving your body the chance to adapt to a new sleeping surface or layering. As you can see in post #2 here … there is an initial breaking in period and adjustment period with any new mattress before you can know for certain whether it is working for you. Your body may also need to “unlearn” what it has become used to and how it adapts to pressure and alignment issues that are unique to you and the mattresses you have slept on in the past. I would recommend reading post # 2 here and post #7 here as well.

Third and perhaps most importantly … you have 90 days to help you discover what type of layering is the closest to your ideal and help you understand more about the types of design that work best for you. Regardless of whether you end up keeping your current mattress … the flexibility of its design means that you have a real opportunity do do some re-arranging and experimenting that can give you some insights into why you are having the issues you are having.

The type of issues you are having can be because of comfort layers that are too firm but with your higher weight it is equally likely (perhaps even more likely) that it could be because your hips are flexing beyond their neutral range and firmer support layers may be helpful to prevent your hips from overextending. Your experience on the Corita and on softer layers may be pointing to this as well. This firmer support can be accomplished by some layer rearranging (with each one being tested for at least a week) and would give you the opportunity to find out how your symptoms change (regardless of whether they are completely resolved) with different combinations of the balance between pressure relief and support.

Of course what you do is entirely up to you (and the option of a refund is one of the “values” of the choice you made) but it seems to me that you would be losing a meaningful and possibly important chance to help you understand more about the design of a mattress that may help you to the degree that it’s possible for any mattress to help and that a more “random” or “all or nothing” approach that doesn’t take advantage of the layering options of your mattress and the chance you have to gain some understanding about your symptoms may have much lower odds of success and getting you to the end result you are looking for.

Phoenix

I’m going to take your advice and move the extra firm to the top and see what happens. I wasn’t going to do this because moving these layers around is a big PIA. Keep in mind this is a Ca King so nothing is easy.

Also I am beginning to think that it could be a medical problem that no mattress will fix. This is something that I have thought about too.

Anyway I will let you know how it works.

Thanks

Hi jet757f,

I’m not so sure that is the next layer combination I would try and it certainly wouldn’t be my “advice”.

Don’t forget that you need pressure relief (which comes from the top layers and may need a softer layer than extra firm) and you need good alignment/support that comes more from the middle and lower layers. Extra firm on the top layer may be among the worst of the combinations you could choose … at least for now … because you may have end up with both pressure issues and alignment issues.

You may be making changes that are too extreme and not taking long enough to test any of them.

I agree that re-arranging layers can be a “pain” but the tradeoff of effort would be small compared to what you can learn over the next few months and the possibility that you may get much closer and learn a great deal about your “ideal” layering in a mattress. This knowledge may benefit you in many ways (both in cost and quality of sleep) for many years, may help you get of the treadmill of mattress choices that don’t work as well as they could, and IMO is well worth the relatively small short term effort over the next few months.

I would take a more step by step approach with smaller increments of change and test each one for a little longer.

Phoenix

jet575f. I think you are wise in taking Phoenix advice on this and being thorough in your testing. I have followed this thread and also wondered if you might have a medical problem, as the symptoms seem to be the same on all mattresses. A few thoughts: the mattress will soften in the first few weeks, so give it time in each configuration. Also, go over Phoenix explanations on support layers and comfort layers. You may not want to put the firmest layer on top, but you may want to move the extra firm higher to see if you need a firmer support. Good luck. Lew

So which combination would you recommend? When I went from Medium to Soft on the first layer I did not notice any difference.
So maybe I should try to Firm on the top instead of Extra Firm?

Keep in mind this does not take a few weeks for my body to adjust in my case. During the week when I work I only get around 5 or 6 hrs of sleep and the mattress has felt fine in any combination as did the original spring mattress the Corita. I do not get the soreness on my side at all.

I feel the problem on my sides on weekends when I try to catch up on my sleep and get 8 hrs.
So with this situation I know right away. Nothing will change on this even if I try it for a year as I did on the old spring mattress the Corita.

jet, Phoenix really understands the physics of this, so I copied what I think is an important paragraph from one of his posts:

“The type of issues you are having can be because of comfort layers that are too firm but with your higher weight it is equally likely (perhaps even more likely) that it could be because your hips are flexing beyond their neutral range and firmer support layers may be helpful to prevent your hips from overextending. Your experience on the Corita and on softer layers may be pointing to this as well. This firmer support can be accomplished by some layer rearranging (with each one being tested for at least a week) and would give you the opportunity to find out how your symptoms change (regardless of whether they are completely resolved) with different combinations of the balance between pressure relief and support.”

I believe he is saying that your hips may be sinking in too much when you are on your side and that perhaps you should swap the firm and extra firm so that the support layer gives you more support. Personally, I found my latex mattress surface softened significantly so I would be inclined to keep the medium on top for at least a week. If you have a digital camera you can try taking a picture of yourself from behind while lying on your side. My suggestion is to take the picture after you have been lying on your side for a while, so you settle in. Phoenix could make a better guess as to whether or not you are sinking in too much.

Check this thread to see what I am talking about:

https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/new-mattress-is-it-too-soft

I have one other thought. I used to be primarily and stomach and side sleeper. About ten years ago I was diagnosed with sleep apnea and starting using a CPAP machine to sleep. Because it required wearing a mask I had to learn to sleep on my back for at least part of the night. Sometimes I still take the mask off and spend some time on my stomach. Have you tried moving to your back when your hips get sore?

Best to ya, Lew

Hi jet757f,

I think Lew quoted the most relevant part of my last reply.

It’s also important to differentiate between “pressure relief” softness and “support softness” because these are different things completely (see post #15 here)

If it is indeed your hip joints that are out of alignment (and time plays a role in this as well because what is OK for your body for a shorter period of time may be uncomfortable or painful for a longer period of time as you know) … then the support that “allows” your hips pelvis to sink down too far could be the issue.

I know you don’t really believe this but I would also give each new layer combination more than just a day or two so that you eliminate the possibility as much as possible of other factors and make changes based on “patterns” rather than just “a few nights experience”. Many people have been surprised at the reality of adjusting to changes in a sleeping surface and the difference it can make. I would strongly encourage you to go relatively slowly here.

To make some suggestions I would first need to have a reference point.

I’m assuming that you slept on the original layering (top to bottom) M/M/F/XF for at least a week … is this correct? A couple of weeks would have been preferable if for no other reason than the mattress is also breaking in regardless of any adjustment period you may have.

I am also assuming that the initial pressure relief semed to be OK on this layering and that the only issues were when you slept on the mattress for more than 5 hours?

I would need to know the layering that you slept on after you received the second layer of foam. I’m assuming it was S/M/F/XF? I would also want to know how long you slept on this.

If you really felt no difference in the top two layers of S/M and M/M … then this would also point to the possibility of an alignment more than a pressure relief issue. The pain going into your legs also may indicate the same thing. Were the two layering combinations “roughly” the same or did you feel absolutely no difference at all that you could perceive in any part of your sleeping experience on the two layer combinations?

I would also keep in mind what you mentioned in your first post …

A good and logical step by step approach may at least give you some good insights as to why over the course of the next few weeks regardless of how it may end up.

Once I hear from you to confirm what you have slept on, for how long, and any input about any differences you could feel … I’ll try to give some suggestions that may be helpful or at least worth trying.

It may also be helpful to know what type of mattress protector you are using on top of the mattress and the type of low profile foundation you are using (to make sure that it has closely spaced slats and no flex).

Phoenix