Simplified Choice Mattresses aka Disruptors, Bed In A Box, One Choice Fits All, Universal Comfort, Millennial Mattresses

[phoenix]

Hi Heyali,

PPP: I would like a mattress that will accommodate a 300-lb and a 180lb person (and two small dogs). We are getting to the point in our lives–late, late 40s–where we wake up achy, sleep poorly due to a combination of snoring, tossing and turning, menopause (sorry, if TMI!), and lifelong chronic insomnia. We are back, side and stomach sleepers and probably like medium support, though this is something that I cannot determine with certainty, since I’ve never really been sure what that means. We don’t like the “dead feeling” of memory foam you describe, but some hugging is nice. Oh, and I think a hybrid/coil mattress is out of the question due to the anatomy of our staircase which has a hairpin turn, though if these types of mattresses are.flexible, coils might not be a deal-breaker. Having read the detailed information you’ve provided, it seems that the only two remotely plausible mattress choices for us are the Brooklyn Bedding and Kiss mattresses.

If you are in the 300 lb range then there is some information in post #3 here that would be helpful for those that are in higher weight ranges and I would agree that higher density and more durable materials would be a more important part of your choice.

Outside of durability issues … the only way to know with any certainty whether any mattress will be a good match for you in term of PPP would be based on your own careful testing or personal experience but with a mattress that has a great trial and regurn policy then you can test the mattress in your bedroom instead of a showroom.

Pocket coil mattresses are generally flexible enough to bend around corners (and can be used on adjustable beds as well) although bending a mattress can be a bigger issue with mattresses that use linked coils.

Comfort layer: Since you say latex is basically superior in all ways to polyfoam, I don’t know why we would even consider any of the others which lack latex in the comfort layer. Using the guidelines you’ve provided on your site, the Brooklyn Bedding mattress looks better because of the additional 2.5" of latex in the comfort layer which will accommodate a heavier person and be more durable in the long-term. The blended Talalay is also a plus, but I don’t know whether the synthetic Dunlop layer comes with disadvantages. The 4lb density of the Kiss also gives me some pause given our weight. The ILD is not listed (in your blog or on Brooklyn’s site), so I’m not sure how to evaluate that. In fact, I’m not entirely sure how to determine what ILD is best for us. You suggest a lower ILD for the comfort layer and a higher for the core, but I’m not sure what that means in terms of specifications. The Nest looked promising at first, but their site has no specifications listed nor is there any info about shipping and returns.

The choice between different materials is a preference and/or a budget choice and not a “better worse” choice. There are higher quality and more durable and lower quality and less durable versions of every foam material and as long as there are no weak links in a mattress relative to your body weight then any material or type of mattress that you prefer can make a good choice (see this article). Different people can have very different preferences in the type and combinations of different materials or mattresses that they prefer and there is no better or worse or right or wrong when it comes to preferences.

There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is also more about some of the differences between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here.

The 4 lb high performance hybrid polyfoam in the Kiss Mattress is a very high quality and durable material that would be suitable for your weight range (unlike 4 lb memory foam where I would be more cautious) although any mattress regardless of the type of material will have a shorter lifespan for those that are in your weight range.

ILD by itself is one of several specs that can affect the firmness of a single layer in a mattress and by itself has little meaning (see post #4 here). Unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and specs and different layering combinations and how they combine together and can translate them into your own “real life” experience that can be unique to you (which would only be a very small percentage of people) … I would tend to avoid using individual specs such as layer thicknesses or ILD numbers or other complex combinations of specifications to try and predict how a mattress will feel or perform for you and focus more on your own actual testing and/or personal experience. When you try and choose a mattress based on complex combinations of specs that you don’t fully understand or can’t “translate” into your own personal experience then the most common outcome is information overload and “paralysis by analysis”. While knowing the general properties of different materials and components or types of mattresses can be helpful … choosing a mattress based on “comfort specs” specs (as opposed to durability specs) would be much too complex for most people.

Nest Bedding is completely transparent about the materials in their mattresses and lists all the specs that are important on their site (see this article).

When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept well on and liked that they are familiar with, any special considerations you may have, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about helping you to “match” their specific mattress designs or firmness options to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else so that in combination with your own personal testing you can make the “best possible” choice with the highest chance of success.

Core: That brings us to the core of each mattress. The Kiss has an extra inch of polyfoam, though they both appear to use the same grade and density. You state that the first 5-6" are the most important in a mattress, so the additional inch in the Kiss seems outweighed by the extra 2.5" of latex in the Brooklyn’s comfort layer.

The thickness of a mattress or of individual layers is really just a side effect of the design and by itself isn’t particularly meaningful either (see post #2 here) although higher weight ranges will sometimes do better with a mattress that is a little thicker than lower weight ranges but even this depends more on the specific design and combination of materials in the mattress than anything else.

The main point: So my questions for you, Phoenix, are have I sufficiently considered all of the factors you deem important in a mattress purchase given our PPP? Does the Brooklyn seem like the best choice for us? And is there anything I have overlooked or not sufficiently explored? If you could also give me some information about what ILDs I should be looking at in a mattress with differential construction given our situation, that would be much appreciated as well.

I think if anything you may be making this much more complex than it needs to be.

I don’t make specific suggestions or recommendations because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort” or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or if you can’t test a mattress in person then your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

I or some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can certainly help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you may be considering, act as a fact check, answer many of the specific questions you may have along the way that don’t involve what you will “feel” on a mattress, and help with “how” to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress or combination of materials is the best match for you based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you. I would be very skeptical of anyone who claims that they have some kind of crystal ball that can predict which specific mattress you will sleep best on with any certainty. It just doesn’t exist.

[quote]I just heard back from Brooklyn Bedding about the blend of their Talalay latex and this is the reply I received from Mario:
“Our talalay latex is blended with other organic materials to make up the other 60% synthetic materials for instance sand, ground seashells, etc.”
To me, that sounds like there is only 40% (synthetic) latex in the top comfort layer which causes me significant concern. What are your thoughts about this?[/quote]

Again this may be much more complex than you need to know and certainly wouldn’t help most people with their choices. Blended talalay latex made by Talalay Global (formerly Latex International) is a high quality material that is made with a combination of natural and synthetic rubber along with the compounding formula they use to foam and manufacture the latex itself into a product that you can sleep on. This includes foaming agents, curing agents, antidegradants, and other substances that are used to manufacture the latex and in the case of Talalay Global they also add some filler material as well (see post #16 here and post #4 here.). Unless you have a degree in materials sciene most of this type of information would also have little meaning as well.

[quote]
Here are some additional specifications to add to your table above:
Soft (19ILD Talalay Layer, 30-32ILD Dunlop Layer)
Medium (28ILD Talalay Layer, 30-32ILD Dunlop Layer)
Firm (32ILD Talalay Layer, 32-34ILD Dunlop Layer)
Polyfoam core 2lb HD of about 36IFD
Does the IFD of the polyfoam core look high enough to support two large people?[/quote]

I don’t list “comfort specs” in the descriptions because they would be meaningless for most people and can end up being more misleading than helpful.

Again … when you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance will be a conversation with a knowledgeable retailer or manufacturer but the only way to know for certain will be based on your own personal experience which is why having a good exchange/return policy can be more important with an online purchase.

Phoenix