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Hi Manimal,
I think your memory may be reaching back a little too far ā¦ the time I was posting on WTB was in 2010 :).
One of the first things that I (or anyone) learns in this industry is that each person can be very different in their individual needs and preferences so there are too many unknowns, variables, and individual preferences involved to be able to predict which mattress will be best for someone else based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or ātheory at a distanceā (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). Iām always happy to help with āhowā to choose and the steps I would follow but the only way to know which mattress or which combination of layers is best for you is based on your own testing or sleeping experience. There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress and how to minimize the risks involved in each of them in post #2 here.
[quote]Iām a guy, mostly side sleeper, about 6 ft 220 lbs.- late 30ās, āformerā athlete with overall solid build (a bit out of shape right now)- spent as much time as possible lying on my side on the mattress (and others) in the store. It was a fairly firm mattress but had a nice āspringyā feel on top, given the latex layers (āall naturalā Talalay from LI). I wasnāt provided (and didnāt press for) the exact layering but donāt believe it contained any extra plush (lower than 19 ILD) latex in the comfort layers. The support layer was very firm polyfoamā¦ I believe 2.8 lb density.
Ordered the mattressā¦ noticed pretty quickly that I had pressure point build up, my side was sore during the night and after I woke upā¦ just wasnāt comfortable. Gave it a few weeks tooā¦ thought about adding a topper but the mattress was already so thick it would have caused other issues with my sheets/beddingā¦ at that point just wanted to try something else.[/quote]
It would be helpful to know the specs of this mattress such as the layer thickness and ILD range for the comfort and support layers and the type of cover. With the specs you could use it as a reference point to help ābracketā the specs of mattresses that are either too firm or too soft for you. Without knowing the specs though it wonāt be much help in choosing a different mattress that has a softer comfort layer.
Again ā¦ it would be helpful to know the specs of this mattress as well so that you have the specs of a mattress on the other end of the scale to help you ābracketā your firmness choices.
If any mattress that is firmer than the Beautiful feels too firm for you then that would put you āoutside the averagesā for your body weight. The top 3" of the Beautiful is 15 ILD (not 21 ILD) and 3" of 15 ILD with another 3" of 24 ILD underneath it could be a āriskyā choice for your body type in terms of alignment. The Worlds Best Bed with 4" of 15 ILD on top would be even more risky. More āaverageā comfort and transition layers for your weight rage would be firmer and based on ātheoryā the Nature with the 2" of 21 ILD with 2" of 28 ILD underneath it (without a topper) would be in a more āaverageā range for your weight. The PLB specs are in post #2 here.
[quote]At this point, Iām looking to purchase or design a DIY mattress without a separate topper. I recently had the opportunity to try out two mattresses in a relatively local store- blended Talalay (LI Talatech), both had a 6 inch base layer with 2 inches of 19 ILD and 1 inch of 14 ILD on top. The softer version had a 32 ILD baseā¦ too soft. Although Iām not sure of the precise specs of the upper layers on my current mattress, the base is ~32 ILD (all natural) with soft layers on topā¦ 9 inches of latex.
The firmer version- 40 ILD base layer- was much better, but I could kind of sense the firmness on bottom and was concerned it could become an issueā¦ so figured I could go with the one in the middle- 36 ILD base- although it would be an educated guess if I ordered since it wasnāt available to try in the store. After trying the Latex Bliss mattresses and others with a 36 ILD baseā¦ that seems to be my number with regards to a support layer.[/quote]
If you are confident that your testing on the local mattress would be a good āmatchā in terms of predicting your actual sleeping experience then it would make a good reference point or āblueprintā for a DIY mattress. Before considering a DIY mattress though I would make sure that you read option #3 in post #15 here so that you have realistic expectations of the trial and error ad learning curve that may be involved and in some cases the additional costs that may be involved if you arenāt able to return any of the layers you purchase if the layers you purchase donāt turn out as well as you hoped for when you sleep on them.
Given your comments about any of the PLB mattresses that were firmer than the Beautiful (such as the Nature which has 2" of 21 ILD over 2" of 28 ILD on a 36 ILD core it would be somewhat surprising if 2" of 19 ILD and an inch of 14 ILD on top of a 40 ILD core would feel good to you or that you wouldnāt feel too much of the firmness of the support core āthroughā the top layers but once again personal experience always ātrumpsā theory.
Just as a reference point, the PLB Pamper has 6" of 40 ILD for a support core and then a comfort layer of 2" of 21 ILD (almost identical to the 2" of 19 ILD) and this would normally be a fair bit too firm for most people unless they only sleep on their back or stomach and the only real difference between this and the firmer version of the mattress you tested in the store is the additional 1" of 14 ILD on top.
If you do decide to go with a DIY approach then I would tend to take a ābottom upā approach because the choice of your support core will have a significant effect on the thickness and firmness of the comfort layers on top of it that will be suitable for you. If you start with a 6" core and add a softer 2" to 3" comfort layer (or a transition layer) that āin theoryā would either be clearly too firm (in the case of a transition layer if you were planning to add an additional layer) or relatively close (if you are planning to only have two layers) but always making sure that you err on the side of firmness with your initial choices then you can use your actual sleeping experience to decide on what to add on top of your initial choices or on any exchanges you may need to make to "finish your mattress. This way you can make each layer choice (or exchange) based on what you learned from your actual experience on the previous combination and work towards your ideal design one step at a time. A 36 ILD support core would make sense āin theoryā because it would allow for the choice of thicker and softer comfort layers than would likely work well with a 32 ILD support core but again the only way to know whether any combination will work well for you with any certainty would be based on your own personal testing or actual sleeping experience because every layer or change from one design to another will have some effect on the feel and performance of all the other layers in a mattress.
As far as Iām aware ā¦ both the old and the new SleepEZ cover have a āviscose/silicaā inherent fire barrier similar to the one you are describing (although it may be a different thickness) but I donāt know the specifics and Iāve never seen either one so you would need to call SleepEZ to find out for certain.
If you have tested a mattress in person and you are confident itās a good match for you in terms of PPP then it could certainly be a good starting point for a DIY mattress but if you are uncertain then I would make sure that any of the layers you purchase have a good exchange or return policy.
[quote]1) 3 inch 36 ILD + 3 inch 36 ILD + 2 inch 24 ILD (transition layer) + 2 inch 14 ILD
- 2 inch 40 ILD + 3 inch 36 ILD + 2 inch 24 ILD (transition layer) + 2 inch 14 ILD[/quote]
Most people wouldnāt notice a great deal of difference between these two since the top 7" would be the same although āin theoryā #2 would be a little firmer of course. Both of them would have comfort layers that are a little softer than āaverageā although there are many people who are used to softer mattresses or are OK with the higher alignment risks that may be involved.
This would probably be a little bit of a āsaferā choice but again I would make sure that you can exchange layers so that you arenāt āstuckā with your initial choices if you need something firmer or softer. In this case I would probably start with just the support core and the 3" of 28 and then use what you ālearnā from sleeping on this directly (even though it will likely be too firm for you) to decide on the thickness and firmness of your top layer.
To the degree possible (with the exception of say an inch or so as a āfeelā layer) ā¦ I would tend to avoid 14 ILD.
Phoenix
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Hi Manimal,
You may be mistaking me for someone else but I have no personal experience of any type with any version of their covers and my own mattress doesnāt have a stretch knit cover (see here).
Your post included a great deal of information but Iām not quite clear on what you are asking me to comment on. If you could be a little more specific or ask some more specific questions it would be very helpful and Iād be happy to reply to the best of my ability 
Phoenix
Hello again,
Everything, hahah! Jk and sorry, I am throwing a lot out thereā¦will try to be more concise. Keeping my personal āspecsā (build/age, etc.) and āexperienceā in mind, was looking for guidance on the below (assume all Talalay is blended)ā¦
- Store Option (configuration with this support layer not available in store, going down to 36ILD from 40):
Bamboo/Rayon ticking/fire barrier
1" LI 14 ILD
2" LI 19 ILD
6" LI 36 ILD
This is ingeniously simple IMO but I have concerns if there will be enough pressure relief without a transition layer. The PLB Nature felt firmer to me than the store mattress I tried with a 40 ILD support layer (I was too āheavyā for the 32 ILD support layer version in the store and sank in too much). The store owner mentioned potenially adding another inch of the 19 ILD (so 3" 19 and 1" 14) but Iām concerned that could be too much, and result in alignment issues. What do you think?
- DIY Option with progressive layering:
Cotton/Rayon stretch knit cover
1" LI 14 ILD
2" LI 19 ILD
2" LI 28 ILD
6" LI 36 ILD (two, 3" layers)
This would be similar to the PLB Nature, but should have some more softness with the 19 ILD and 1" 14 ILD. Does it sound as if this could be a good option for some additional pressure relief (compared to the PLB Nature) while maintaining alignment? How do you think this would compare to the store design without the transition layer (theory at a distance of course). Iām wondering if a transition layer (28 ILD) is really necessary and if the 'less is more" approach- adjusting the firmness of only the support layer with the same 3" of comfort layers- is the way to go (?)
- DIY Option with progressive āchunkā layering (2 versions- LI or Radium):
Cotton/Rayon stretch knit cover
3" LI 36 ILD
3" LI 28 ILD
3" LI 19 ILD
Cotton/Rayon stretch knit cover
3" Radium 40 ILD (since no 36 unless thatās changed)
3" Radium 29 ILD
3" Radium 19 ILD
What are your thoughts in comparison to each other? How do you think these designs may compare to the first two? If I were to design a mattress and market it (again, like the Dreamfoam Freedom)ā¦ I would probably go with something like this and advise people they could āconfigureā the layers for a softer, medium, or firmer feel. Do you think this could be a good, simple option for me (and againā¦ do you think Iād be better off with one vs. the other)? My main concern would be that the bottom two layers are supportive enoughā¦ do you think that may be the case with both the LI/Radium configurations?
As an aside, Iāve read the posts on fire retardantsā¦ to be completely honest, the use of Boric Acid in the Dreamfoam Freedom held me back from purchasing it. It may sound silly and I know boric acid treated fiber is still used in many āmainstreamā mattresses and larger companies (āSā brands in particular)ā¦ but thatās kind of what many of us are trying to get away from, no? I just canāt seem to get ācomfortableā with the idea, even if itās something not likely to have any long-term impact on health or affect the overall performance of the mattress. Any further opinion there? I like Dreamfoam and donāt mean to ācall them outā in any way, but feel people should be able to make an educated decisionā¦ and I do applaude them for being open about the materials they use.
Which brings me toā¦
- DIY natural Dunlop option (qualityā¦ sourced from a place like Latex Green, Arpico, etc.):
Organic Cotton/Wool stretch knit cover
3" natural Dunlop soft
3" natural Dunlop medium
3" natural Dunlop firm
Do you think the support factor of Dunlop could potentially lend better to a design like this (as opposed to Talalay). If going this āall naturalā route, I also wonder if Iād be better off with an extra layer of 3" medium for a total of 12 inchesā¦ for more ādepthā and pressure relief. Do you think that may be ānecessaryā, or could I potentially configure the layers in the 9" version and have enough support/pressure relief?
Lastly (for now :))- my paragraph on the box foundation early in the last post (let me know in the future if youād prefer to have that pastedā¦ just trying not to let this post get too much longer)- does that make sense and would you tend to agree? I feel people underestimate the importance of a solid foundation.
Sorry, Iāll also tack-on the comments regarding the rayon fire barriersā¦ Iāve spoken with Shawn at Sleepez (before I first posted here) and feel ācomfortableā with my understanding of their mattress cover, especially after finding good close-up pics in the forum here. The store option mattress Iām considering uses rayon, but itās like a fiber pad (comes in varying thicknesses as shown on Milliken site) that serves as the ābackingā to the soft bamboo rayon material on top. I suppose that fiber pad is the same inherent fire-retardant material but was wondering if you had any additional insight.
Thanks againā¦ tried to ask more specific questions and hope the format of this post makes it a little easier for you to comment.
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
Unfortunately you are the only one who can feel what you feel on a mattress and there really are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to predict which combination of materials will be the best match for you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) with any certainty (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here again). Even relatively small differences between two mattresses can sometimes have a surprising effect on how they compare for some people that are more sensitive and this can also vary from person to person. The only reliable way to know whether a specific combination of materials and components are a good match for you is based on your own personal testing or sleeping experience.
I can make a few general comments but knowing how the designs you listed will compare to the Nature or to each other in your own personal experience with any degree of certainty will need to wait till you have tried them in person.
There are different types of firmness and softness that some people may be more or less sensitive to than others when they lie on a mattress (see post #15 here). There are also several factors that can affect the firmness or softness of a layer or a mattress outside of just ILD (see post #4 here). There is also more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here. Finally there are a couple of more complex posts based on ārough mathā (that would be inaccurate and only conceptual or generic) in post #2 here and post #26 here that may also be of interest in how layers can interact together and how weight is distributed across the surface of a mattress.
This layering would be softer than the Nature in terms of surface feel (from the 1" top layer of 14 ILD) and probably in terms of pressure relief (the top 3" are softer overall than the Nature) but I would be somewhat cautious here because with the softness of the top layers and because they are only 3" thick with your body weight you may āgo throughā the top layers a little too much and feel more of the transition to the firmer support core than you are comfortable with. This would probably be even more noticeable with a 40 ILD support core and of course less noticeable with a 32 ILD support core but this may also be too soft for good alignment (as you mentioned). I would guess that if you were to add anything to this combination it may do better with a firmer āin betweenā transition layer of an inch or two so that the firmness of the layers is more gradual and progressive rather than additional inch of 19 ILD that could be somewhat risky.
This would also have a softer surface āfeelā. It would also have more pressure relief softness than the Nature partly because the layers are softer than the 21 ILD in the Nature, partly because the pressure relieving layers are thicker, and partly because Talalay GL can feel a little bit āstifferā than the regular blended Talalay to some people that are more sensitive. I think that the 2" 28 ILD transition layer would eliminate the issue of the transition to the firmer support core. The only caution I would have with this would be that the overall softness/thickness of the pressure relief and transition layers may be a little too much and your hips/pelvis may sink down a little too far before they are āstoppedā by the firmer support core. If I was considering this configuration I would probably start without the top 1" of 14 ILD and sleep on the mattress without it first and then add the additional inch if you find you need it after a few weeks once the layers have broken in somewhat. You may find you donāt need it.
I think that for most people they would be very closely comparable and they probably wouldnāt notice much difference because the top 6" are so similar. Some people that are more sensitive may notice the slightly firmer layers in the Radium or the slight differences between Radium and LI in terms of how their ILD ratings compare but they would probably be the ones that are more sensitive to smaller differences between mattresses. You can see the RadiumILDrangeshere.TheirS8hasahttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/4https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/5https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/6https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/7https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/8https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/966/NewRadiumILD1_2014-04-17.gif]Radium039.8ILD.
I think that both support cores would be suitable but both of these are slightly softer than the āstandardā component configurations that many manufacturers use as their default in the top and middle layer so it may be worthwhile to go with the slightly firmer core (even if you donāt really feel it when you first lie on the mattress) because its āinfluence would be towards firmer and better deep support. I personally tend to prefer slightly softer comfort layering than āaverageā so this would probably be ok for me (Iām about 205 and 6ā 5ā) but Iām also more towards the āI can sleep on anythingā end of the range than the āprincess and the peaā end of the range so I have a fairly wide range of mattresses that are suitable for me to sleep on comfortably. Some people in your weight range may find that the 3" of 19 over 3" of 28/29 may be a little on the soft side for optimal alignment. This is where your own experience will be the only way to know how well you sleep on these combinations. There are currently more manufacturers that prefer Radium over LI in terms of quality and consistency based on my conversations and feedback from talking with manufacturers.
I consider the choice between Dunlop and Talalay to be a preference choice rather than a ābetter/worseā choice. There is more about the differences between them in post #7 here. With Dunlop it will feel different of course and would be less resilient and have a higher compression modulus (how quickly a material become firmer with deeper compression) so it would feel firmer for most people if the ILD of the layers was the same as a similar Talalay mattress but any other differences will depend on the specific firmness of each layer. This is where there are too many variables to know which one would be ābetter for youā outside of your own personal experience but mostly your personal preferences. Like any DIY combination I would take a ābottom upā approach and sleep on three layers and then use my personal experience to decide on whether I believed I would prefer a 4th layer (which wouldnāt be ānecessaryā at your weight but may be a preference).
I donāt know what the material is that they use over the slats but if itās some type of MDF then I would have thought that there would be very little flex in the foundation even if there are 5" gaps between the slats (which would be more than I would suggest if the mattress was directly on the slats). Of course I havenāt seen the foundation in person so you would have more information about it than I do. You can also see my thoughts about solid surface foundations in post #10 here.
Inherent fire barriers come in different thicknesses and have different characteristics that cann have a different effect on the feel of the cover but you would need to talk with the manufacturer of a mattress for any specifics about the fire barrier they use (if they are willing to provide it) and itās effect on the feel or performance of their cover.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
The more Iāve thought about this, the more I really like the idea of the 1" 14 ILD (for that surface softness) on top of 2" 19 ILD. Now that itās more apparent to me the regular blended Talalay feels softer (to me at least) than the Active Fusion, I completely agree that only 1" of the 14 is enough. That leaves me with the transition layer for both the store and DIY optionsā¦ Iāll list them again right here along with applicable comments Iād like to address for convenience:
store: 1" 14 ILD, 2" 19 ILD, 6" 36 ILD Bamboo Rayon cover and finished on both sides so itās āflippableā
DIY: 1" 14 ILD, 2" 19 ILD, 2" 28 ILD, 6" 36 ILD (two 3" layers) stretch knit Cotton/Rayon cover
Regarding both of these, I can see how there may be some risk in terms of alignment if thereās too much āsoftā to sink through. The store configuration is starting to make more and more sense, though I do have concerns about the lack of a transition layer. In your opinion, do you think only 1" of a transition layer would lower the āriskā but still be effective enough (instead of taking off 1" of the 14 ILD since Iād like to keep it)? You mentioned a āfirmer āin betweenā transition layer of an inch or twoāā¦ would you tend to think ā28ā is the magic number there?
I realize there are many factors/variables here and your intention is to āguideā and not ādictateā in these types of exchanges, but your comments and insight have been extremely helpful in my thought process.
Thanks,
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
I really donāt think there is a magic number and you are at a level of āfine tuningā where any theory breaks down and where if you were to ask 10 people that were similar to you then you may very well find that some of them would āvoteā for the transition layer (because they want to feel less of the firmer layer on the bottom), some would vote for no transition layer (they may like the firmer or more āsolidā feel of the firmer layer underneath them), and some may not notice much if any difference at all. It may very well boil down to variances in sleeping position and weight distribution and the surface area of each part of the body that comes in contact with the mattress as you sleep on it.
FWIW ā¦ if it was me (and I donāt have a lot of āpaddingā) and based on my own testing on various combinations and I was side sleeping and was to ābounceā gently with my hips I would guess that I would probably feel the firmer layer underneath me a little more than I would want to and would probably wish for ājust a touchā more padding in a transition layer before I contacted the firmer core but of course this is speculation because I havenāt tested the specific combination you are considering.
You could try the same thing on the 40 ILD mattress with the 1" of 14 and 2" of 19 to see how much you can feel the firmer base layer on your side or if you ābounceā a bit with your hips and then āimagineā a support core that was just a little bit (but not much) softer. If you can feel it too much with the 40 ILD then you would probably feel it with the 36 as well.
Phoenix
Hi,
This is exactly what I did Based on the 32 ILD support version right next to it, which I seemed to kind of ācrushā (just felt too soft/ poor alignment), I figured going with something in between would make sense. But then of course, I couldnāt help but wonder about the transition layer.
In theory, a 2 inch 28 ILD transition layer may work better in a mattress thatās glued together with a solid 6" 36 ILD core. The DIY could be a little softer with two 3" 36 ILD layers and no glue, even though the stretch knit top should still make everything fairly ātightā.
Iāll have to give it some more thought and speak with the store owner again. He said theyāve been making them this way for a very long time and if it aināt broke, donāt fix it. From his perspective, I would imagine being able to use a configuration with āonlyā 9 inches of latex (relative to PLB and others) can allow him to maintain a āhealthy enoughā profit margin as well. That said, I may still be willing to pay a significant premium for a mattress thatās already āput togetherā.
Any additional thoughts? Thanks either wayā¦ I find it amazing youāre able to respond to everything the way you do
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
I donāt think that most people would notice the difference between two 3" cores and a single 6"core if they were all the same ILD (see post #2 here).
If you are using a zip cover I would also think that the benefits of being able to replace the layers would outweigh any benefits that would come from gluing the layers (see post #2 here).
I would agree with the āif it aināt brokeā thinking. With each configuration you may gain some customers that prefer it the way it is (with the two core options they have) and you may lose some customers where neither one is their perfect āmatchā. The profit margins are usually fairly consistent between the mattresses that are made by the same manufacturer (although the margins on higher budget mattresses are usually a little higher) but using a little less latex may also be part of how they hit certain price points.
I canāt think of anything else unless you have any additional questions that I can help with.
Thanks for the kind words ā¦ and good luck with deciding on which direction you wish to go
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
Back again So I had a chance to speak a little more with the store owner regarding the transition layer. He indicated itās more of a āDunlop thingā and the concept originated from/was more relevant to Dunlop due itsā different overall āfeelā (ācharacteristicsā in my mindā¦ denser, higher compression modulus, etc.). This may make some sense, especially since I seemed to notice a more supple feel with the blended LI Talalay as compared to the āstifferā Talalay GL. The owner also felt that even the 36 ILD was relatively supple (heās not swaying me with the buzzword of āsuppleāā¦ I just think itās a good descriptive term here) and that the overall feel of the mattress goes back to that support layer. Essentially, he feels a transition layer is not really necessary (at least in the majority of cases) due to the inherent characteristics of the blended Talalay.
I donāt necessarily ābuyā the whole Dunlop theory, but think heās at least expressing his opinion based on experience. IMO he has a good, practical focus and stays away from gimmicks/marketing nonsense and āoverkillā in general, which I respect. He also told me he ordered the 36 ILD core today and should have it on the floor within a couple weeks which Iām thrilled aboutā¦ wonder if itās in part due to enduring my torture the past couple weeks but glad he recognized it may make sense to have that āmiddleā option available. With your knowledge and contacts I wonder if you know or suspect who Iām dealing with 
(though you may often not have time to consider such things ).
At the end of the day, I can still save considerable money with the DIY and have more flexibility to play with the layeringā¦ at least I should be able to try out the āactualā store configuration before making a final decision as to which option makes more sense for me, since there are still āprosā with regards to getting a āfinishedā mattress (especially one thatās two-sided).
Thanks,
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
Heās correct that Dunlop has a different feel and response curve than Talalay. There is more about how they compare in post #7 here and using Talalay in the core could make āenoughā of a difference that it didnāt need a transition layer compared to a similar firmness level of Dunlop (which would āfeelā firmer and less resilient).
A difference of 4 ILD is also very small and for many people if the 40 ILD core was too firm then switching it to a 32 ILD medium core (two firmness increments rather than just one) could make enough of a difference that they didnāt need a transition layer.
Youāre right that I normally focus more on the materials in your mattress than on which manufacturer you may be dealing with so I donāt normally try and figure it out or think about it. I just assume that you will mention it when you are comfortable doing so. Whoever they are they are certainly taking the time to work closely with you!
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
HNY In doing some more research, I came across sleeponlatex.com. The site seems to have have some good information and the products appear to be good quality. Are you familiar at all with the site/owner?
Recently, I was a in a local store and checked out the OMI (Organicpedic) Duoā¦ I was surprised to like the feel of the med/soft/soft layering more than the firm/med/soft, although it would be somewhat risky given my body type and sleep preferences (6 ft, 225lbs, side sleeper). It seemed to offer more ābuoyantā pressure relief whereas the firmer configuration seemed to āget firmā too quickly. I didnāt have enough time to test it out, but thought a med/med/soft configuration could work. Any thoughts there?
Also, Iām not sure of the approximate ILD and/or density of the OMI Dunlop layers (to my understanding theyāve converted to using Organic Dunlop almost exclusively now and are āphasing outā the Talalay). Would you have any info on the approximate ILD/density of the OMI Dunlop? Iām thinking āfirmā would be somewhere in the 35 range in terms of ILD, but not sure āwhich sideā (as in 30-35/35-40) and medium would be around 28-30 (?). I would call to try and pry it out of them but unfortunately theyāre closed now.
Iām interested in the blended Dunlop on the SOL siteā¦ three, 3 inch layers would be under $750. Itās made in the US according to the site, but Iām not sure of the source or blend (or process for that matterā¦ Mountain Top and Latexco are the only US manufacturers I can think of off the top of my head with MT being the only one that offers cores and thicker pieces). Either way, it appears the owner did his homework and it would be good quality.
If purchasing 3 inch blended Dunlop layers, the firmness options offered on the site are medium (28 ILD/ 4.5 pcf), soft/medium (24 ILD/ 4 pcf) and soft (18 ILD/ 3.5 pcf). Given that I didnāt seem to like the āfirmā organic Dunlop base layer in the OMI mattress, I was thinking of trying the med/med-soft/soft with the blended Dunlop. I realize the blended Dunlop will not be as dense overall as all-natural/organic, but figure the āsofterā layering could work since it will have essentially the same characteristics and ābehaveā like Dunlop, with the med/soft acting as a transition layer. Does this make sense or do you think this configuration may be too risky?
Also, I know Talalay latex is considered more breathable than Dunlop due to the cell structure, etc., but is Dunlop still considered to be āopen-celledā. I canāt really seem to find a straight answer there, although Iāve come across a few references that indicate Dunlop is still breathable, though probably not to the extent of Talalay.
Thanks,
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
You can see my thoughts about Karl and Sleeponlatex in post #4 here and post #3 here and a forum search on āsleeponlatexā will bring up more information and feedback about them as well. They are certainly a reliable supplier of latex components and toppers which is why they are included in the component supplier list here.
Only you can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone else to be able to predict which mattress design will be the best match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or ātheory at a distanceā. The most reliable way to know whether a mattress is suitable for you is based on your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) or your own sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
There is also more about the different ways to choose a mattress and how to minimize the risks involved with each of them in post #2 here.
Itās not likely that you will be able to find out the ILD or density of the individual layers in the OMI mattresses (and I donāt know them) and I believe that they are one of many companies that treat this as being proprietary information. When you are testing a mattress locally then the ILD of the layers isnāt important to know because your body will tell you much more about whether a mattress is a suitable āmatchā for you in terms of PPP than the ILD of the layers and ILD itself is also only one of several factors or āspecsā that will determine how soft or firm a layer or a mattress will feel to different people and can sometimes be more misleading than helpful (see post #4 here).
Their blended latex is continuous pour Dunlop made by Latexco. While Latexco can make their continuous pour latex in any blend of natural and synthetic rubber ā¦ it is typically 20% natural and 80% synthetic.
I would be aware that ILD ratings arenāt directly comparable between different types and blends of latex because they will have a different compression modulus even if the ILD (measured at 25%) and layer thickness is the same.
As I mentioned in my previous replies as well ā¦ the only reliable way to know whether any combination of layers will be a good match for you will be based on your own personal testing or experience.
If you are building a DIY mattress then the two most reliable strategies would be to either āduplicateā the materials and components in another mattress that you have tested and confirmed is a good match for you in terms of PPP (assuming that you can find out all the relevant specs including layer thickness, the type and blend of latex, the ILD range of each layer, and the type of cover and quilting material and that you have access to the same materials) or with a bottom up approach where you choose each additional layer of your design based on your actual sleeping experience (see post #2 here).
All latex has an open cell structure (and in most cases pincores as well although they may not go all the way through a layer) and tend to be more breathable than other types of foam materials but Talalay has a more open cell structure than Dunlop and will tend to be more breathable than Dunlop. There is more about the many variables that can affect temperature regulation in post #2 here.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I havenāt made a final decision yet and still working on getting a good quality foundationā¦ taking forever but seems to be some light at the end of the tunnel. Also, apologies if I came off a little āoverly exuberantā on my initial posts (I removed a lot of the wordy/ unnecessary stuff)ā¦ had to sort through a lot of ājunkā in my head. Anyway, thanks for your patience/tolerance and your responses which, along with testing different mattresses and configurations, really helped me define the options Iām considering.
Generally speaking, Iām down to 3 options- 1) all Talalay, most likely from KTT Enterprises (LI); 2) all-natural Dunlop base layers with Talalay top layer (Henry at Flexus); 3) all-natural Dunlop layers (molded, not continuous pour). Iāll stay away from the configurations/reasoning for now because my immediate question is regarding fillersā¦ been coming across the mention of fillers in some latex quite a bit lately. Usually this is in the context of information on sites that sell all-natural Dunlopā¦ some of these places also sell blended/synthetic Dunlop as well as Talalay. To my understanding LI uses filler in both their blended and all-natural Talalay and Radium does not use filler in either formulation (is this correct?). Do you think that the use of filler should be of concern with regards to the durability/degradation of the latex over timeā¦ or that it should have any bearing on the decision to go with LI/Radium/Dunlop?
Iām not as concerned with respect to Dunlop because I would most likely go with all-natural anyway thatās āconfirmedā to not have fillers. Iāve even had a couple experienced ālatex peopleā strongly suggest I stick with all-natural/organic molded Dunlop for all the layers since itās āprovenā and has such a long track record (not that Talalay doesnāt at this point)ā¦ especially if I wanted to keep things more natural and ātrueā in the latex material/processing (I realize this can be a complicated/debated topic along with personal preference). I can understand the reasoning there but not completely committed to āall naturalāā¦ in fact, if going with Talalay it would be a blend. If going with Dunlop, itās mainly for simplicity in the layering and the āspiritā of trying to keep things a little more naturalā¦and it seems more difficult to āgo wrongā with the all-natural Dunlop, so itās kind of a safer choice (personally I find the layers easier to configure due to the characteristics of Dunlop).
I was able to speak with Nancy at KTTā¦ after that conversation and a couple others (Ken at Arizona Premium and Dave at CSS in CT) Iām reasonably confident that LI is back on track with their quality control (although it will take a lot more before some are convinced)ā¦ so Iām really just wondering about the fundamental use of filler and itsā āeffectsā on the latex.
Thatās it for now- thanks
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
This is my understanding as well.
The use of fillers in each manufacturers latex compounding formulae is a very complex subject and is really more in the realm of a materials scientist with a PHD degree and years of experience (which Iām not). There are different types of fillers and each of them, along with the quantity used can have such a different effect on both the performance and durability of latex that there arenāt really any simple or generic answers that would be particularly meaningful. In very general terms fillers can be used to increase the firmness of latex, change the properties or change the āfeelā of the latex, add fire retardancy, or lower the cost of manufacturing the latex. Past a certain point ā¦ the use of ātoo muchā filler can certainly have a negative effect on durability.
Having said that ā¦ I would also keep in mind that all latex is a high quality and durable material relative to other types of foam so outside of defective materials or quality control issues you are really comparing differences between high quality and durable materials.
As you mentioned ā¦ the use of fillers wouldnāt be an issue with 100% natural molded Dunlop made by the well known manufacturers (such as Latex Green, Arpico, CoCo latex etc) and it also wouldnāt be an issue with any of the Dunlop latex made with the Continuous pour method. The latex where the use of any āhiddenā fillers may play a more significant role in durability would generally be with blended molded Dunlop made by some manufacturers and this is the type/blend of latex where I would want to know that there are either no fillers or minimal fillers used in the formula. This may not always be possible to find out because latex compounding formulae in general are closely guarded secrets.
In the case of Latex International ā¦ fillers are used at a level that doesnāt diminish product performance over the life of the mattress, but does help reduce production costs. The theory is that it doesnāt make sense to produce a product at a much higher cost that doesnāt greatly outperform the product at a lower cost. In other words ā¦ it would have āsome effectā on durability but this would be over longer periods of time. At their best ā¦ and excluding any quality control issues that may affect the durability of the latex ā¦ I would say that in āreal lifeā terms the durability of LI Talalay and Radium Talalay would be very comparable over the length of time that most people would keep their mattress.
You are certainly looking at some good quality/value options and there is more about the most important parts of the āvalueā of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that may help you make more meaningful comparisons between them.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I expect to place an order this week for a new foundation from The Organic Mattress Storeā¦ they have the WJ Southard foundations which seem to be high quality and including delivery/removal (which I need) theyāre a relatively good value. My only other option (and what I thought was my only option, period, before finding TOMS) would be a Sleeptek foundation from The Clean Bedroomā¦ although theyāre high quality and have optional screw-in wooden legs, donāt think I can justify spending several hundred $$ more at this point when I have a good bedframe.
Since Iām on the East Coast near the CT border, Iām most likely going to drive to KTT Enterprises and pickup the latex layers. This will hopefully happen on Presidentsā Day if I can confirm theyāre open (since theyāre closed on weekends). Theyāre not ācloseā but probably close enoughā¦ and if necessary, I could probably drive back to exchange layers even though this wouldnāt be ideal with their hours, etc.
Anyway, wanted to run something by you after speaking with Arizona Premium a couple weeks ago. They seemed adamant that cutting a 6 inch core into two, 3 inch pieces was not a good idea with respect to the performance and long term durability of the core (and the reason they use split 6" cores with their āshippedā orders). Iāve noticed some other places do this as wellā¦ WJ Southard for example with their Dunlop cores. This has me seriously considering wrestling a Queen 6 inch 36 ILD core instead of having it cut (I donāt want a split). I can probably do it (handled 4 inches of all-natural dunlop in the past) but wondering if itās really worth it and wanted to get your opinion.
Also, I like the Bamboo āreplacementā covers at Arizona Premium (the pictures on the site donāt do it justice and a more updated version is shown in some of their newer youtube videos) but Iām not sure if the final height of the mattress will end up at 10 or 11 inches (or 12, who knows) so I may go with the less expensive rayon/cotton 4-way stretch from Sleepez, at least initially, since the 11" model should easily still be tight enough for 10" of latex and also able to accomodate an extra inch if it ends up 12". Even though itās quilted, I like the combination of āBambooā rayon and wool in the AP cover and supposedly the wool is not a really thick layer, so shouldnāt interfere with the feel of the mattress too much. Do you think the rayon/cotton Sleepez cover would have similar or āenoughā of the moisture-wicking properties in comparison to the AP cover? Iām not hung-up on this and think my āstrategyā is pretty good but wanted to get your thoughts.
Thanks,
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
The foundation post here also includes some good sources for foundations that would be suitable for a latex mattress.
You can see my thoughts about two individual 3" layers vs a single 6" layer in post #2 here.
It would be quite difficult to handle an unsplit 6" core and compress it to dimensions that were small enough to ship by courier and common carrier shipping would be much more costly if you need to return or exchange layers.
I canāt think of a reason I would choose a single āunsplitā core vs a split core if there is a layer of latex on top of it and it has a suitable tight fitting cover.
Iām not personally familiar with either cover so I donāt know how they compare. There is some feedback about the AP stretch knit cover in post #8 here and some feedback about the SleepEZ stretch knit cover in post #1 here that may be helpful.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
I thought it was interesting that Arizona Premium (Ken in particular) was so against 2 Queen 3" layers as opposed to a split 6" layerā¦ he really felt (strongly) that cutting the 6" layer into 3" layers would compromise the integrity and performance (including durability) of the core. Since the consistency of Talalay is so uniform after processing, Iām kind of surprised on his stance and donāt really see why it would make that much of a difference, at least in theory. I guess opinions vary widely in the industry on certain subjects so for whatever reason(s), thatās his opinion based on personal experience and the reason he chooses to go with split 6" cores.
If I didnāt end up going through KTT (where shipping wouldnāt be a concern), mattresses247 could be my primary option for Radium (itās now between KTT, M247, Arizona Premium, and Flexus). Valerie is super nice as Iām sure you know and her prices are great. I noticed that her āmediumā Talalay is listed as 30-32 ILD and asked her if Radium makes blended Talalay outside the ātargetā ILDās listed on their site (approximately 29 or 34 for the āmediumā range and nothing in between)ā¦ she said they do but I was wondering if you had come across this (?) I know her Radium Talalay is distributed by Latexco and was wondering if this could be a ālabelingā issue at the distributor (and donāt feel she would intentionally give misinformation)ā¦ I just found it strange that Radium would produce ILDās outside of their published ranges.
Thank you for the links with feedback on the covers as well
Thanks,
Manimal
Hi Manimal,
You will find that there are many issues in the industry where there isnāt a consensus of opinion and there is legitimate disagreement between different manufacturers/retailers that are all knowledgeable and experienced but have different experiences or beliefs and this is sometimes more of the ānormā than the exception.
You can see Radiumās ILD ranges for their naturalandblendedTalalayhere.Notalldistributorshttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/4https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/5https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/6
Phoenix