Slumber Ease (aka Eastside Mattress Factory)

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Phoenix

Well I finally made it to Slumber Ease (aka Eastside Mattress Factory). As you noted, they had some good stuff there, and they seemed to know their stuff. Nick wasn’t there but I talked to his partner Rex. They had some all latex and some memory foams but I was mainly interested in their inner spring beds. They basically do 2 kinds of inner spring beds:

  1. The first is a normal mattress with poly foam or latex sewn into the topper. This was $2k for just the king mattress (no box spring) with latex.

  2. The other kind was an inner spring core with a zippered top. You could choose poly or latex for the topper. This was also in the $2k area for just king mattress (he said $1700 with poly foam).

Altho they sell a few different kinds of springs they basically recommended a stiff (~12) bonnel type coil. They had a luraflex on the floor which I sort of loked but it was crazy bouncy and I know my wife would hate it. And Rex really recommended against pocket coils because of my weight. He sort of said “just get good heavy gauge standard coils, cover em with enough foam that you are comfortable, and you’ll be good.”

They had poly foam in a lot of their beds and said that their foams would last well, even for me (240 lb). They said that altho latex would probably last longer, the primary factor for me should be which material I liked better (in terms of comfort). They had several different tops, with different quilting and padding, and so it was a little hard to compare just poly to latex. And they didn’t seem to have much variation in the amount of foam in the topper - it was roughly 3". You could go harder or softer but it didn’t seem like you could go more or less depth. Also, he said he thought the latex was 21-22 but he didnt seem sure and there was no way to test say 15 vs that 21-22. And poly foam doesnt measure the same way so it was hard to compare the poly to the latex.

I thought the beds were pretty comfortable, although I’m not sure any were the magic one, or even which one I liked best. Not sure if the zippered top is worth paying for if you are going to stick latex in there, it should last a long time, but maybe its worth being able to flip it. It seems worthwhile if you go with poly foam which might not last as well. So basically, not sure about the price (I thought local manufacturer would be cheaper than Sleep Country), and not sure if I should go latex or poly. And if I go this route not sure how firm I should go. So still a lot of questions!

Just thought I would post since my last post was a while ago. Decided to start a new post since the last post was originally about zoning. Thanks for any and all help!

Steve

PS - In case you forgot, you had recommended Slumber Ease, and said to try the latex over inner springs. To quote: In other words … a layer of latex on top for pressure distribution and relief over an innerspring which may help the more protruding “areas” once compression reaches them in the deeper layers may work well for you.

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Hi Steve,

The saga" continues … :slight_smile:

It’s been a while but I remember at least most of where we’ve been but I also went back to quickly scan your other threads just to get back up to speed and see if I could make some "connections.

First though some comments about your experience at Eastside FWIW but there’s not much I can really say because I don’t know the layers of the mattresses you tried or the specifics of how they felt except that in general terms they had no “magic” to them so it’s hard to know how “valuable” your experience there was.

Do you know which model this was? I’m guessing it was similar to this which has a 15.5 gauge innerspring with 3" of latex and some Ultra-Cell polyfoam (which is a high performance foam and good quality). While the price would reflect the amount and quality of the components in the mattress … it may not have been the best example of our experiment because there are a lot of unknowns (materials besides just an innerspring and latex) and the innersprings are quite thin and as you say “bouncy”. The extra foam would play a significant role in the feel and performance of the mattress and without more details about the layers it’s hard to come to many conclusions about what latex over firmer but still conforming innersprings would feel like.

Again … without knowing the details of the layers … it’s hard to give much feedback.

While this may be good advice for the majority of people (many of whom will discount the value of a good set of firm Bonnell coils in certain constructions and budget ranges) … I think that with the challenges you have faced in trying to get things right and the amount of experimentation you have done with layering, that you certainly don’t “fit” the norm. I’m also not convinced hat the right type of pocket coil with the right layering above it is necessarily bad for you … although it is true that coils which act more individually have more stress than those who act in combination with other coils (like in offset, bonnell, and continuous coils). I would choose lower gauge (firmer) coils though but if they work for you in the right combination then performance and comfort will “trump” theory IMO.

My personal thoughts with an innerspring would be tending towards either a heavier offset or a pocket coil. With the ultra firm Bonnell you would really have the equivalent of an ultra firm base and this would not fit in with the “experiment” IMO nearly as well because you would need thicker comfort layers to isolate yourself from the firmness and feeling of the coils rather than the coils working more closely with the comfort layers.

I agree with the sentiment that all materials have their place and have advangtages and disadvantages. Latex and polyfoam both come in a wide range of firmness levels but conventional polyfoam … even if it’s higher density … will feel different from latex no matter what the firmness. You are also right that they are tested for ILD with different thicknesses so ILD between the two materials isn’t directly comparable but rough comparisons can still be made in terms of soft vs soft, firm vs firm etc. If you go into the HR polyfoam which uses a different chemical formula … then the feel will be much closer for the most part although the ILD’s between them will still not be directly comparable.

My sense is (and correct me if I’m wrong) is that the prices were for their higher end mattresses which have an innerspring and latex and other high quality foams in the mix as well. In this case … they would have much higher value than anything comparable at Sleep Country if Sleep Country even carried a mattress that had the same quality of materials at all.

I certainly remember but unfortunately neither of the mattresses you tried seemed to “fit” what I had in mind … (or at least I don’t know if they did without more details) which was more along the lines of a firmer offset or pocket coil to test how they would feel for you compared to a latex core. I was also hoping for more clearly defined layers over the innersprings and with some of the unknown variables (other types of foam in the mix or connecting how you felt to specific constructions) it’s difficult to come to any real conclusions.

It would be interesting to talk with Nick (who I know will get more “technical” when necessary) and see what type of design ideas he may have given your experiences. Again zoning may end up playing a role here.

I’ll also go back to the previous threads and write another post about any patterns I can see there because there were some mattresses you liked (the Latex Green with the tension adjustable base and a couple of others) that may have some design components in common. It was the idea of the thinner latex green on a tension adjustable base that led to our previous discussion about the properties of innersprings that may be part of a “solution” and end up being part of your “best” layering. I think we also talked about “dominating” layering (firmer materials over softer materials such as the soft part of an innerspring and where latex can “bend” into the softer components rather than “compress” over firmer components) which may also play a role.

I’ll review the other threads and then make a few comments about anything that seems to pop out in another post.

Phoenix

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Hi again Phoenix,

Re: my experience at Eastside, yeah I was a bit disappointed. I thought they would have a bunch of types of springs out, and a bunch of toppers, and it would be easy to try and compare different options and maybe even “design a custom” solution. Instead it was pretty limited. As I said they had a variety of foam beds but not that many spring beds. And what they had wasn’t labeled, and even when I asked for info on the bed I didn’t get a model #, I got “Single-sided zippered inner-spring w/ poly top.” Rex kept discouraging me from asking questions about what was in the bed, instead trying to get me to focus on what I was feeling. Which I get, but I regret that I couldn’t really get details from him. In retrospect I think maybe I should have gone to the factory and talked to Nick rather than only visiting the showroom.

Re: the beds I did try, they were both roughly the same, firm bonnell coils with about 3" of latex or poly on top. As far as I know there were no other materials in the beds (except for in the cover of course). As I said one was sealed in the bed and one was zippered, and the tops (covers) differed a bit, but other than that they were essentially the same. I don’t know where you got the idea that I said they were bouncy. They were heavy gauge and definitely not bouncy. Oh, there was one other spring bed that had luraflex springs, that was bouncy, but that’s not in the running.

Re: your comments on coils, again I agree with you and was surprised at his comments and the lack of choice in the store. I’ve always thought of bonnell coils as low end but that’s pretty much all they had. He basically said coils were marketing and one kind was about the same as another. He also wouldn’t really talk about details like coil counts which he said are misleading. Again maybe I need to talk to Nick to see if they can do heavier offset or pocket coils?

Re: prices, yes the $2k quote was for pure talalay latex over springs and I’m sure its better quality than Sleep Country. But just for grins I decided to swing by there and check. I wanted to try the BeautyRest Black “latex” model again to compare to SlumberEase. I had tried it at Macy’s once before and sort of liked it. This time I thought it was definitely too soft on my back. The salesguy said that the bed has been on the floor for many months and was probably more “broken in” than the one I tried previously. In other words, those beds soften up and start to break down pretty quickly!

That one Beautyrest was the only thing they had with any latex in it; every other mattress was either all memory foam or springs with all or some memory foam in the top. I did sort of like a Sealy Posturpedic Gel bed they called the Diamond Elite Firm. It was marked at $1799 for the king mattress only, so I expect I could get it for $1300 or $1400? Which makes it quite a bit less than the SlumberEase. No idea of the quality of the Sealy bed tho…
Thanks again for all the help!

Steve

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Hi Steve,

I think I would have been disappointed as well. One of the “strengths” of local manufacturers is that they are usually more interested and forthcoming about their materials for those who want more specifics. While I understand that there is a “line” where too many technical details is self defeating and most good “mattress people” can sense when people are in over their head in technical specs … this is on the other side of what I would consider the “norm” with factory direct outlets. My conversations with Nick have been very different from your experience.

I think I probably connected the specs on the site (which has 15.5 gauge coils) with your comments about trying another mattress that was bouncy and assumed that the mattresses you tried were also 15.5 gauge and bouncy rather than the firm Bonnels. That’s the danger of assumptions or reading something that isn’t there :). If the mattresses you tried were Bonnell coils with a few inches of latex over them (and probably an insulator) and had nothing else … then I agree that they are priced on the high side.

While there is “some” truth to the fact that coil count and innerspring marketing can be very misleading and that the subject is not as simple as most people would believe … to say that all coils are the same is just as misleading and inaccurate IMO. There are big differences in coils even though the differences involve more than coil count. Bonnell Springs can be good quality but are certainly a lower cost item to produce and that should be reflected in the prices of the mattresses that use them. The only type of coils that are lower cost to produce are continuous springs. Even here though there are cheaper and more expensive varieties of every type of spring.

The Beautyrest Black is the ultimate marketing hype and while they don’t release the details of what is in it, it does contain some lower quality foams (like 3.5 lb memory foam and various unknown polyfoam layers) that would soften much more quickly than higher quality materials. Even the latex version has only a thin layer of latex in the mix (although they don’t say exactly how much).

Sealy has just recently jumped on the gel memory foam bandwagon (ike more manufacturers) with their Optimum line that they just introduced at Las Vegas. I haven’t seen the specs but as far as I know, the innerspring versions have a whole 1/2" of gel memory foam in them and the rest is their “regular stuff”. In the foam core versions I believe the the gel memory foam is thicker but like the iComfort it is still mostly “other” foams and their business model which is focused on marketing stories rather than the facts and ingredients behind the stories mean their value is most likely just as poor as the rest of the major brand mattresses. Newer mattress models are also harder to negotiate a discount but I wouldn’t consider it (or any model from any other major brand) anyway. Whatever they charge … the odds are overwhelming it will be too much based on the ingredients once they become known. They are all poor value and it’s sad that so many consumers even consider them.

There’s an interesting video here about the current state of the mattress industry which sadly is very true.

Phoenix

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  1. I didnt see any specs on their website. Can you give me a pointer? Maybe i can find the ones i tried.
  2. You didnt say anything about the sealy gel beds. Im assuming they are not great but im interested in the new gels. Have you discussed them on the site yet?
  3. The one interesting thing i tried at sleep country today that i forgot to mention was a Legget and platt adjustable base. I kept saying how i want to sleep on my back but cant stay comfortable that way for long. Sales guy went into the whole curved back / flat bed thing and suggested the adjustable base. I have to say i liked it. But im still not convinced i could sleep on my back all night even in the “zero g” position…
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Hi Steve,

If you click on “mattresses” then clicking on any of the pictures will bring up some partial specs on the mattresses (although they are not complete) and if you click on “high end mattresses” and then any of the pictures on top they will also have partial specs.

I haven’t discussed them (the Sealy gel mattresses) in any detail except to say that they are not really worth the effort of researching because the odds are overwhelming that the end result of the research (after the many many hours of trying to find out any information about them in the first place and because Sealy doesn’t give out meaningful information about any of their mattresses). I would not buy anything from a manufacturer that doesn’t provide meaningful information about the quality of the materials in their products and as long as people do … the clear message will be sent that marketing stories work better than factual accurate information and the marketing hype will continue. Over time as the specs become more available (and there will probably be contradictory information here as well) I will do an analysis but the business model of the major manufacturers means that all their mattresses have similar value anyway when compared to the many better choices and manufacturers that are all around the country. They are really only worth the time to investigate when more information is available and it is a very safe assumption that they (like the rest of their products) are low value and well worth avoiding. Of course if someone has more success than I have about finding out the density of the foams that they use in their mattresses … then it would make a valuable addition to the forum rather than having to put dozens of pieces of a jigsaw puzzle together to find out what the “most probably” specs are.

The different types of gels and my thoughts about them based on the research I have done are in post #26 here.

Adjustable bases are great but for a side sleeper the flat position (with perhaps a very slight elevation or the foot or the head) is the only real possibility. The zero gravity position does relieve pressure but I have my doubts about the benefit of “forcing” someone to sleep in one position when it is far more natural to change positions over the course of the night.

While the Leggett and Platt are good quality (as most of their products are) their value in adjustable bases is not normally as as good as either Ergomotion or Reverie IMO as you can see here.

I will get to an analysis of the Sealy gel beds (and probably others as well that have already been out for a while) over time but this would be more for people who don’t yet realize that the “S” brands are not worth considering at all unless the complete specs “suddenly” become available and the prices are justified by the quality of the materials that they use (which is very unlikely to happen). It is still an emerging category being driven by marketing considerations much more than quality or factual considerations.

Phoenix

7

So I finally talked to Nick today. Again, not feeling very encouraged. He basically said you can’t design a bed for both side and back sleeping, and that you can’t make both me (240lbs) and my wife (130 lbs) comfortable on the same mattress. He said a foam or pocket coil core would be best but then said he didn’t have any pocket coils that he liked (ie he didnt think they would be durable given my weight). He suggested doing a split mattress with different coils (or foams) for each of us. At this point I am seriously thinking of trying the sleep number beds again; at least those can be adjusted on the fly…
Steve

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Hi Steve,

I went through all your posts in the forum and “extracted” any parts I thought would be relevant so they could all be in one place and I could scan them more easily. This should help me to identify some patterns (if I can see them) and see what I can make of it.

I should also ask you how your wife feels on the various configurations you’ve tried or if she has any preferences of her own so that she can also be taken into account.

I know there’s lots here (in addition to all the stuff from before) so I hope it’s OK to put them all in one place. It may take me a bit to go through them but hopefully I can see something that may help (and there are a few common factors that jump out but more about that when I’ve had the chance to look more carefully).

I should also ask you how your back alignment is. Do you normally have a straight posture or is your back more curved or out of alignment than normal? Have you visited a chiro recently to see if there are any issues there?

You are certainly a “challenging” case :slight_smile:

More to come …

Phoenix

From previous posts:

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Yikes! Good luck making sense of that. I couldn’t even get thru it. And I wrote it!

By the way, I think I was finally able to test out the soft topper over firm offset coils theory. And it felt pretty good!

Went to 6 Day Sleep - somehow I had missed this place the previous rounds of shopping. This place is owned by “Bald Bob” - Phoenix, he remembered talking to you and said to say Hi!

Anyway, they have a bunch of latex (bliss) and memory foam and several spring mattresses. Several really firm spring mattresses. Several with Verticoils, which I guess is a kind of offset coil, but they were 14 or 15 gauge and so I shied away. Also, these were so firm that even with the 3" PureLatexBliss toppers it was too firm for me! (I could feel the transition from foam to spring.)

He also had 2 beds by Northwest Bedding (Spokane, Wa) which had heavy gauge (12.75) double-offset coils. Both had high density foam on top; 1 also had some latex in it. They are apparently designed for large people and to be very durable. They are both one-sided. Both were too firm for me but felt pretty good with the PureLatexBliss topper. He called them the XL 100 and XL 300 but I think on their website its called Ultimate Life 1, 2 or 3 (http://www.nwbedding.com/search.ydev?prod_pc_id=1412). Looking at the 1, it looks like the springs are
“topped by an additional 2 inches of cushion grade medium firm plant-based foam. To this support system is added an additional layer soft, cushion grade plant-based foam. The designer stretch knit fabric is tack quilted to layers of soft, cushion grade plant-based foam and FR fiber to provide a supple sleeping surface.”
I’m thinking of getting the 1 (the one without latex) and putting a 2 or 3" latex topper on it for comfort. Just wondering if you know anything about this bed and if it really is going to be durable. And if this is finally the thing you wanted me to try?

Thanks again!
Steve

PS - He said that NorthWest Bedding used to be associated with King Coil? also used to be called Comfort Solutions?

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Hi Steve,

Believe it or not … I think there are some common denominators in there but I haven’t had the chance to really analyze it yet. One thing that seems to jump out is that you liked some mattresses with thicker layers of wool which would make sense because wool has the ability to provide local cushioning without compromising support. There are even some “zoned” wool toppers which use more wool in the middle area so that it will stay more resilient under heavier weights and compression.

In essence … yes this is what I was hoping you would have a chance to try. There are a lot of manufacturers who swear by double offset coils and they have a combination of some softness along with a coil count and gauge that make them very firmly supportive once you get past the softer part. Firmer foams on top of this (somewhere in the mix) and then some soft foam as well for cushioning on top would provide some surface softness along with some deeper more limited “coil softness” (the bending in I was talking about). They are not as motion isolating because the coils are joined with helicals but the softer “offset” part can act more independently than other types of coils.

When I talked with Northwest Bedding they were quite excited to be going “back to their roots”. As you mentioned, they used to be a Comfort solutions licensee (the new name for King Koil and KK is now just a brand name) but they thought they were losing control over their mattresses and designs and wanted more independence than being a licensee could afford. They are a little higher priced than some but they are definitely mattress people and are very open about what they put in their mattresses.

The XL (and the NW Bedding variant) use much higher quality polyfoam than is the norm in their mattresses. “Cushion grade” usually refers to 1.8 lb density or higher that would be used in furniture and as you can see here … KK (and I’m guessing NW bedding) even uses some 2.5 lb HR polyfoam and 6 lb memory foam in their mattresses. Even the foundation is much more durable and is built like a tank with two center supports.

So this type of mattress would be firmer than usual and built for better durability. The type of topper that would be “best” would depend on preference but the PLB may be a little on the light side (although your personal experience “rules” theory)

Of course there are variations in the design that may be better or worse for your needs and preferences but this is the general idea of what I was hoping you could test out. Firm coils with some top softness (the offset part), with some firmer “dominating” foam over them (that would compress less and bend into the coils more) and then some “relatively” softer foams for some top cushioning (which may need some extra “soft stuff” over it for fine tuning).

If you talk with Bob again … tell him I said “hi back” :slight_smile: He’s good people.

I should have a chance to look through all the “clues” in the next couple of days and see if I can put together a post that makes some sense out of it.

Phoenix

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Ok, well,i look forward to your thoughts. Also, if you know of another inner spring mattress in the Seattle area that might fit the experiment better pls let me know and i will go try it. (Altho i really like that this one is made for us heavier folks.). Also, im curious why you think the PLB topper might be too soft. Im beginning to think the problem all along is that none of my toppers were soft enough…
Thx again,
Steve

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Hi Steve,

I’ve started the “analysis” but haven’t had the chance to sort through it all … it’s still coming :slight_smile:

It would be very interesting to test out the mattresses at Soaring Heart. They have a firm offset innerspring with a talalay topper (choice of firmness) and then a wool topper on top (one of two thicknesses). This is a really simple design and would be a good way to test some of what we have been discussing with both the firmer latex on top of coils with a wool topper (thicker or thinner) for localized pressure relief that didn’t compromise support and alignment. I actually talked wth Jason there today and I have to say I was impressed with his integrity and knowledge. the slightly firmer toppers will have some cushioning but also “bend into” the soft part of the innerspring and the wool will provide additional cushioning for any areas that need it. I may be off here but it would be very interesting to see how you responded to this particularly because thicker wool was one of the “patterns” that I noticed in your feedback.

I think this is more a matter of degree and “competing influences”. The PLB toppers are very soft and depending on the thickness can certainly provide pressure relief in combination with what is below them (you would "go through them and feel the layers below more because of your weight and the softness of the topper). The goal is to sink through them evenly and the danger of using a thicker topper is that in combination with the “semi soft” layers below you may have a little too much thickness/softness and sink through more with your heavier areas but the combination may still “hold up” your lighter areas and lead to alignment issues. Softer foam in “quilting” thickness can be a great choice to modify the latex below it and lower the surface resilience of the mattress (which can be uncomfortable for some) but when it gets to be thicker it changes the pressure distribution and support characteristics of the mattress. This may be too soft for a comfort layer (doesn’t create firmness with compression fast enough) but too thick to just modify the surface feel and lower the surface resilience.

I am particularly interested in how you do with the Soaring Heart because the thicker wool layers will also change the pressure relieving surface to be more localized but still be soft enough and with the type and construction they use in their wool it would allow you to sink in and cushion the areas that need it without compromising support and alignment provided by a firmer support layer.

More to come as the analysis continues.

Phoenix

13

OK, so I went to Soaring Heart today, and I was impressed. As you probably know they have 3 toppers: 2 wool toppers (2" and 4") and a 2" soft (not sure of the ILD, do you know?) “natural Talalay latex wrapped in a layer of Eco-Wool and tufted into an organic cotton sateen case”. I have to say all the toppers felt great. The 4" wool was really nice but I would worry about durability and care, and it might have been too soft (although honestly at the time I didn’t care it felt so nice). The 2" wool and 2" latex were both pretty great as well. Honestly I felt like I could take those toppers and put them on the floor and I could sleep ok!?!? (OK, probably not really!)

Most of their mattresses were firm (dunlop) latex, although they also had the 1 inner spring model you mentioned. The inner spring mattress was set up with the latex topper, and it was pretty nice. The springs were offset open coil and 14 gauge wire, which seems a little light to me. The mattress seemed pretty bouncy, even with the topper on it. My wife wasn’t with me but I suspect she would find it too bouncy. And I would worry about the 14 gauge not holding up. Shoulder pressure was better than on my bed but still there.

By the way, I just reread your last post and noticed you said this bed had 2 toppers? I think that would have been too soft, I didn’t try anything but the latex topper on this bed (although maybe you meant the latex topper has some wool in it?).

I decided to try the latex beds too; they were mostly set up with wool toppers. Again, quite comfortable. In both cases (wool-wrapped latex topper on springs, and wool topper on latex) what you felt was some wool and some latex, although the inner spring bed was definitely bouncier and had more life to it, which is both good and bad. :slight_smile: I sure don’t make things easy. I’m not really sure which I prefer. I sort of don’t want to get an all wool topper because of impressions and care issues. I am awfully tempted to buy the latex/wool topper and try it on my SleepEZ bed, which I think might be close to right in terms of support and is just lacking proper comfort materials…

14

Hi Steve,

Well that’s some promising feedback :slight_smile:

I was impressed with them as well in my lengthy conversation on the phone. Jason is best friends with Nathan who is the owner of the Woolgathers carding mill which makes the EcoWool. They have been involved together for a long time and he knows a lot about wool (although he told me that Nathan is the best expert of all). they make their own all latex mattresses, their own wool toppers, and their innerspring mattress is made by WJ Southard with the material they send them).

I’m not sure of the Topper ILD but when we were talking he said it was on the firmer side which would likely mean N3 or N4 (@ 27 or @32 give or take a few for the variability or natural talalay). He also uses natural talalay in the mattress core of the Tamarack and this might be N5 (@ 38). Not sure though.

His 2" topper starts off at 4" and is compressed to 2" and the 4" one starts off with 6" of wool compressed to 4". I didn’t find out the wool density. We talked at length about the wool and how he makes the toppers and I would have no worries about durability or longevity. He said that you could reasonably expect 10 years or more from them and many have been in use for longer. He chooses the specific wool blend he uses for it’s qualities (he’s been experimenting with different breeds for a long time and it was interesting to hear him talk about the specific properties of wool from each breed) and also cross layers the wool so while there will be some impression, this is not a bad thing in wool and the impressions … even over a long time … will be minimal and will also even out over time as well as you sleep in different areas of the mattress. Wool also retains it’s resiliency if its made right and cared for for a very long time.

I’ve talked with quite a few wool manufacturers and mills in the last few weeks and the general consensus is that medium wool is much better for a topper than fine wool (which is more for fabrics) and will compress less and is useable for longer. The type of wool and the tufting and inner construction will also make a difference in the consistency of the wool over time. There is some initial compression and firming in the areas with more weight (which in the case of wool is not a “negative” like impressions with foam and doesn’t leave you trapped in a “sinkhole”) but then it remains consistent and resilient and further compression is very slow. Thicker wool toppers are also different from the feel and performance of wool used in fire barriers or thinner mattress pads which have much less cushioning ability. They are a legitimate and durable “comfort layer” in a mattress in other words. If you have any concerns though … Jason will talk with you in as much detail as you want about how the wool “ages”.

The interesting part about thicker wool toppers (and by thicker I mean both the 2" and the 4" as opposed to pads or densified fire barriers) is that they distribute weight differently from latex and the pressure relief is more localized around the pressure points rather than “full body” like with latex) which means that it can provide localized pressure relief where it’s needed without affecting support and doesn’t shift as much weight to the more recessed areas of the body which I suspect from some of the patterns I’m seeing is why you like certain types of mattresses. This would be somewhat similar to how soft quilting layers can modify the resilience of latex and not distribute as much weight to the recessed areas.

I personally wouldn’t be worried as much about the durability of the innersprings (even though it’s only 460 in queen) but more about how you feel about the “bounciness” of the springs which would be either a good or bad “preference” and it seems that how you feel about the bounciness would rule them out at least in this gauge.

By the way, I just reread your last post and noticed you said this bed had 2 toppers? I think that would have been too soft, I didn’t try anything but the latex topper on this bed (although maybe you meant the latex topper has some wool in it?).

The extra topper I meant was the option of adding a wool topper (probably the 2") on top of the latex although it’s not part of the “system” itself. I would have been curious how this was but as you said it may have been too soft.

This is also quite promising and may also indicate that a thicker layer of wool on top of the “right” latex layers may work well for you. The “bounciness” is of course a preference but even though it probably wouldn’t be a durability issue … I would tend towards lower gauge springs in your case … and/or a higher coil count.

I would talk with either Jason or (Nathan at the woolgatherers) and talk with either about wool over time. I talked with Sarah (Nathan’s wife) at Shepherds dream and she was really knowledgeable but Nathan is the “expert”. I am starting to suspect that just a wool topper (not even the latex/wool) may work for you in combination with the right latex layering. I’m thinking that you already have lots of latex and that the “missing link” may just be some wool on top of some combination of what you have although the wool latex topper may just happen to be the perfect combination of latex firmness/thickness/and amount of wool for you so your experience with it would carry a lot of weight.

You could also talk with St Peters Woolen Mill or Frankenmuth or Zeilinger Wool Company or Surroundewe if you want some other thoughts or confirmation about how wool performs and wears over time or their ideas about how they make their toppers. All of them were very helpful when I talked with them on the phone and I’ve added some comments about some of them (more are yet to come that I haven’t added yet) in post #3 here.

Phoenix

15

My wife and I went back to Soaring Heart today; we both really like the way the 4" wool feels. I think we would like it on almost anything, but they had either organic dunlop or natural (ie pure, unblended, no synthetics) talalay, in either firm (35) or x-firm (44). I didn’t notice much of a difference between the talalay and the dunlop (or even the inner spring?!) or even the firm / xfirm with the 4" wool topper on it. They really pushed the firm and said that most people that buy xfirm end up swapping for the firm.

The issue now is cost. I don’t really care about organic and think a blended talalay (rather than the natural) is probably fine for a core (remember we are slepping on the eco wool not on the latex). I can get the latex much cheaper anywhere else (they charge $2150 for a 6" natural talalay core - 7" total because its wrapped in batting and covered). I know I can get a 6" core for a lot less - Ikea has something for like $600 although I dont know the density or quality. So thats one problem.

Also I’ve seen wool topper from places like Surroundewe.com that look equivalent but are cheaper. My inclination here would be to buy from Soaring Heart because I’ve felt that one and I know I like it and I think they will stand behind it if we have any issues. Less sure about buying the latex from them since in a sense latex is latex and any decent core (between something like 35-40 ILD) should be fine. Curious what you think? Also if you recommend dunlop or talalay?

They also said they wouldn’t warranty their bed on a platform; they require a slatted base. So that means we need to buy new furniture too (not too much of a problem since we planned to do that anyway since we are changing from Cal King to King)…

Steve

16

Hi Steve,

There will be two replies before I go to be tonight and this is just a placeholder to let you know they’re coming. One is the analysis of the feedback in the earlier post and one is a reply to your latest post. As I was going through the “history” of your comments and feedback and writing about each one … I realized that doing an analysis of each comment would lead to a book and would introduce so much “information” that it may do more harm than good. This is especially true when I can see a “theme” emerging which bypasses the need to write a more detailed analysis and a more general approach about what the mattresses you liked had in common would probably be more helpful. Besides … our back and forth’s are probably a book already and I’m not so sure I want to write another one when I get the sense you are close.

So there’s more to come tonight … but not another book :slight_smile:

Phoenix

17

Hi Steve,

I put together a list from all the previous posts that are roughly “rated” according to what you liked, were more neutral about (or is unknown for the purposes of this analysis) or you disliked. I’ll just put the list in this post for reference and then comment about the patterns I see in the next one.

Phoenix

Mattresses you didn’t like so much:

Royal-Pedic (reverse zoned)

Pure Bliss Latex mattress

3" PLB topper on the Pamper and the Nature (2" was a like)

Naturas at B&M feel much firmer and more tightly packed to me (which I didn’t like much)

I was just sleeping on my wife’s soft / medium / soft side, which i think is definitely too soft for me, but the pressure points felt the same as my all medium side. Is it possible that going firmer would actually reduce my pressure points?

Ordered a 2" soft Talalay topper from SleepEZ and put it over the above config. (S/M/F) This is when I started really feeling my hips sink in too far; also, it didn’t help that much on my side, still uncomfortable.

I wanted to try the BeautyRest Black “latex” model again to compare to SlumberEase. I had tried it at Macy’s once before and sort of liked it. This time I thought it was definitely too soft on my back. The salesguy said that the bed has been on the floor for many months and was probably more “broken in” than the one I tried previously. In other words, those beds soften up and start to break down pretty quickly! (NOTE: same as the newer model in the “like” category)

More Neutral or unknown:

Aireloom Vitagenic (Don’t know which you tried and there are several)

New Sealy Posturepedic with Dsi coils (Don’t know which model … firmness level … you tried)

Soaring Heart: The inner spring mattress was set up with the latex topper, and it was pretty nice. The springs were offset open coil and 14 gauge wire, which seems a little light to me. The mattress seemed pretty bouncy, even with the topper on it. My wife wasn’t with me but I suspect she would find it too bouncy. And I would worry about the 14 gauge not holding up. Shoulder pressure was better than on my bed but still there.

  • The weird thing is, as you know right now I am sleeping on 9" of medium (well SleepEZ medium, so 31-ish ILD) latex. When I first go to sleep I feel like my back is overbending and its annoying. But when I wake in the morning (usually on my back) my back doesn’t hurt, and it doesn’t feel like its overbending anymore. Does that mean anything to you?

Mattresses you seemed to like:

  • I had slept on latex before, but that was many years ago. Bodies change and what was comfortable at 30 isn’t necessarily comfortable at 50. Also, probably more importantly, my old latex mattress had a pillowtop, with non-latex (probably poly foam) in the topper; that surely changed the feel of the bed.

Simmons Beautyrest black Ava (Carmen) firm

OMI

Natura

Simmons (coils) (not sure of the materials over the coils which were the ones you liked)

I felt like my shoulder could have sunk in more on the Simmons and Natura, but at least it didn’t hurt; the soft comfort materials on top seemed to alleviate the pressure points. If only that mattress would last a decent time I might buy it!

Green Sleep with adjustable base

2" topper the Pamper was ok, and the Nature still felt pretty good (which surprised me because I expected it would be too soft). (rated after the Green sleep and Natura though so only "somewhat liked)

I am now sleeping on soft / firm / medium, which seems to be working pretty well. The soft on top finally gets me a little comfort, the firm seems to stop the sinking in and provide about the right amount of support. I spent 3 nights this way, and while its pretty good I still would like more cushion. So I just added my 1" supersoft latex layer. I know it wont change much but hopefully it will provide a bit more comfort. By the way, I added this inside my cover; I suppose it might make more of a difference on top (right under my mattress pad) but its thin and uncovered, so I think it needs to be protected.

So not that much to report. I changed my layers to 1" supersoft over soft over firm over medium, and I’ve been sleeping on that. Seems to be pretty good, although I still change positions a lot during the night and wake up with sore spots on my sides. It’s good enough that I haven’t gone out trying mattresses lately, not so good that I think I’ll wait that much longer

Slumber Ease firm bonnell coils with about 3" of latex or poly on top: I thought the beds were pretty comfortable, although I’m not sure any were the magic one, or even which one I liked best.

Sealy Posturpedic Gel bed they called the Diamond Elite Firm. (sort of liked)

Northwest Bedding (Spokane, Wa) which had heavy gauge (12.75) double-offset coils. Both had high density foam on top; 1 also had some latex in it. They are apparently designed for large people and to be very durable. They are both one-sided. Both were too firm for me but felt pretty good with the PureLatexBliss topper.

Looking at the 1, (NW bedding) it looks like the springs are
“topped by an additional 2 inches of cushion grade medium firm plant-based foam. To this support system is added an additional layer soft, cushion grade plant-based foam. The designer stretch knit fabric is tack quilted to layers of soft, cushion grade plant-based foam and FR fiber to provide a supple sleeping surface.”

At Soaring heart: I decided to try the latex beds too; they were mostly set up with wool toppers. Again, quite comfortable. In both cases (wool-wrapped latex topper on springs, and wool topper on latex) what you felt was some wool and some latex, although the inner spring bed was definitely bouncier and had more life to it, which is both good and bad. I sure don’t make things easy. I’m not really sure which I prefer. I sort of don’t want to get an all wool topper because of impressions and care issues. I am awfully tempted to buy the latex/wool topper and try it on my SleepEZ bed, which I think might be close to right in terms of support and is just lacking proper comfort materials…

My wife and I went back to Soaring Heart today; we both really like the way the 4" wool feels. I think we would like it on almost anything, but they had either organic dunlop or natural (ie pure, unblended, no synthetics) talalay, in either firm (35) or x-firm (44). I didn’t notice much of a difference between the talalay and the dunlop (or even the inner spring?!) or even the firm / xfirm with the 4" wool topper on it. They really pushed the firm and said that most people that buy xfirm end up swapping for the firm.

The one interesting thing i tried at sleep country today that i forgot to mention was a Legget and platt adjustable base. I kept saying how i want to sleep on my back but cant stay comfortable that way for long. Sales guy went into the whole curved back / flat bed thing and suggested the adjustable base. I have to say i liked it. But im still not convinced i could sleep on my back all night even in the “zero g” position…

18

Hi Steve,

So here are some of the patterns that I see which may point to some solutions.

The “didn’t likes”:

Most of the mattresses that you didn’t like had latex close to the surface in thicker or firmer layers. What this is likely pointing to is that if you sink into latex past a certain point (for good pressure relief) … it also has resilience or what some people call “pushback” in parts of your body that are sensitive to this. I suspect that these parts are either tightened in positions that aren’t straight or don’t “want” to be so straight … at least initially. They are saying "let me be in the position I’m used to and I don’t care if another position is “better”. If you firm it up so you don’t sink in as far … it creates pressure problems on the pressure points even though it may solve the issue of “pushing” on the parts of you that “want” to be out of alignment.

If the latex is really soft but also too thick … then you are compressing it enough so that the soft latex firms up and is more resilient and the same problem appears. This can also create joint issues where the joints are flexed too much and out of their natural “center point” causing pain or discomfort in the same areas as materials that are too firm. The exceptions to this is the Natura with firmer compressed wool which was probably just too firm for good pressure relief and the “softened” Beautyrest black which was like the ultra soft latex topper that was too thick and allowed you to sink in too far and put your hip joint out of alignment (and possibly your lower back as well because the thicker softer or softened foam may still hold up your upper body but not your lower heavier pelvis).

The guideline of the “don’t likes” seems to be that the surface layers can’t be too firm but they also can’t be a combination of too soft and thick. You need something in the middle that provides pressure relief but doesn’t allow your hips to flex too much before they are “stopped”.

The Neutrals:

Two are in this list because they are unknown layers so I can’t connect them to either group and one is for “bounce”. The one you are sleeping on though (3 mediums) seems to be " somewhat OK" for all of this but not really enough of any of them. Pressure relief is OK but not great. Shoulders sink in kind of but not enough. Joint and pelvic alignment is OK but initially uncomfortable until your body adjusts. It just isn’t “quite right”. It seems that the alignment may be OK but what may be happening is that you start out more “bent” from the posture of the day and straightening and the relaxing of muscles that allow the straightening may happen over the course of the night and you are OK by morning. Because it’s medium … you may not be sinking in quite far enough to put too much pressure on the sensitive parts and you may not be out of “joint” alignment even though it’s kind of too firm for good pressure relief and to allow your shoulders to sink in far enough.It’s all in the

The ones you liked to different degrees:

This is where it gets interesting because there are several patterns here which all end up with a similar result but through different means with an end result that they don’t shift pressure onto the areas where you are more sensitive and where your body shape doesn’t want to “co-operate” to straighten out. There are 3 ways that do this …

A. One is with adjustable components under the mattress. This is the Green Sleep and the adjustable. What may happening is that you are sinking in but not enough into firmer layers to cause the pressure distribution issues but the adjustments underneath still allows your shoulders to sink in or your back to stay “comfortably out of alignment” (the “bending into” we talked about earlier). This could be with firmer latex that compresses to a degree and then the soft part of the layers below or the coils “finish the job”. With this the surface layers don’t get compressed enough to cause the high resilience issues that your back doesn’t want to accommodate and conform to.

B: Many of these also use layers of lower resilience polyfoam which don’t “spring back” as much when you compress them so that again you don’t have as much pressure on certain areas of the body where you are uncomfortable. This way … even if you sink in far enough to get good pressure relief or to allow your shoulders to sink in … the foam is not resilient enough to cause strain in the areas of your body that may be naturally out of alignment or sensitive. The key here is low resilient soft foam in layers that are “just enough”. Even ultra soft latex seemed to be OK as long as it wasn’t too thick here. Too thick and soft and they allow too much sinking in and cause the hip issues as well as possibly “pushing back” too much in the wrong areas. This is probably also why the 2" 14 ILD talalay was ok but the 3" wasn’t.

C: Wool. What wool does is something similar which allows for the cushioning of pressure points but it springs back more weakly than firmer or thicker foam (that is more compressed) in the less compressed areas so that your muscles and joints aren’t being affected by being “forced” into positions that aren’t comfortable. This seems to be your “favorite” option because wool will resist weakly until it gets firmer more suddenly. It cushions but then stops before there are alignment issues. In the areas where it gets firmer under weight then some softness underneath “completes” the process with some additional (but not too much) softness to “allow” the parts that need to sink in a little more.

All three of these are saying that your natural alignment and posture may be out a bit and that having latex on the surface that compresses too much under the parts where your posture isn’t straight are “forcing” these parts into positions that may be better in “theory” but not in practice because you are not quite “straight” and being “forced” to lay in a “straight” position puts strain on the muscles.

The bottom line with all three of these methods … lower resilience soft foams that aren’t too thin or thick, firmer foams that get help from underneath, and wool that can cushion but not “force” and can take advantage of some additional compression underneath, all seem to work but if I’m reading your feedback correctly … wool seems to work best.

An interesting thought (tonge in cheek) is that maybe your body is telling you that your “absolute perfect bed” may be one of the hand built innerspring and natural fiber superbeds like Hastens … VI Springs … Hypnos … or Savoir :slight_smile:

In any case … I think that’s what the “signs” are pointing to as far as I can make sense of your feedback and put it into patterns.

More to come with some thoughts about your last post.

Phoenix

19

Hi Steve,

Last post for the night :slight_smile:

I would also think that the softer latex would work better because you will need some extra compliance under the wool to allow some parts to sink in better … especially with some initial firming. This would give the mattress the ability to be more adaptable to different sleeping positions and improve pressure relief from (underneath). While the firmer latex may feel good at first … when the wool completes it’s initial compression it may not be “quite” enough and may need more 'help" than the ultra firm latex may provide. I think this would be especially important for you because your shoulders may not sink in quite enough otherwise.

You already have enough latex layers of various firmness levels that you wouldn’t need to buy any more. It may be worth starting with the wool layer on the 3 layers you currently have and then lying on each side (M/M/M and your wife’s S/M/F) to see what each feels like. You could also use 6" (2 layers) with the wool on top similar to the Soaring Heart. You would have many options and as you say they may even all work well. Is there a reason you are thinking of buying more latex or am I misreading something?

The wool sources I linked to in the earlier post all make good quality products but when I talked with Jason I have to say I was particularly impressed. They are not the lowest cost but he really does know his stuff and he had the highest “estimate” of the useable lifetime of his wool topper of all of them (although "estimates may not be real life). He also layers it in a way that it doesn’t compress as much and keeps it’s loft better. They are not the lowest cost but they do seem to make products that are very durable.

The surroundewe was also impressive though because they added more wool in the center which would be a form of “wool zoning” for durability and to keep the compression even. They also had a regimen where you lay in different places all across the surface as an innitial “treatment” to compress it evenly. I would probably tend towards local though even though the costs are a little higher both for known quality and the reasons that you mentioned. His description of the product and the knowledge behind it was impressive.

I’m kinda confused about why you are looking for a base under the wool when you already have so much latex. With just the wool topper you should have everything you need and hopefully the have “missing link” that you’ve been wanting for a long time. Oops … I think I may be getting it … is it about the change from King to Cal King? If that’s it I would probably order the topper anyway in the size you wanted and then use the layers that you have to make sure of what worked best under it before buying anything else.

I have to say I’m quite hopeful about all of this working for you after so long :slight_smile:

Phoenix

20

OK, well that’s a lot to process! In the meantime I will try to address the issues you raised in your last post.

First of all, I agree with you about buying the topper locally. Its not that big a difference in cost and as you said I think it will be easier to fix any problems I might have locally.

Second: Yes we want to change from a cal king to a king. This isn’t really a huge deal, its just that we realised we are still sleeping on a cal king because 20 years ago we had a water bed and somehow never changed. So we have all this old furniture and stuff that matches the cal king frame, and now we want to dump it all and start over. Also, Beth is allergic to dust and needs to buy allergy covers and things and there are a lot more choices for king than for cal king.

Third: I thought about using the latex we already have. But there are a few issues:

a. its a mix of dunlop and talalay and I no longer know which is which
b. the “firm” piece is noticably taller than all the other pieces, so when I use it the 2 sides of the bed are uneven (I still change the config in my bed pretty often and haven’t been using the firm in a while, just to try and even up the bed)
c. the “mediums” are roughly 31 ild, not really firm enough to use in a 6" config (Soaring Heart used either 35 which they called firm or 44 which was xfirm)
d. I don’t want to get a cal king topper if we are going to change to a king bed, and i just hadn’t thought of getting king and trying that with the existing latex
e. My latex has been handled so much and sat out in the closet so often that I think it is “damaged” or at least not in the best shape. There is a big difference between the look of the latex in the core at Soaring Heart and the latex in my bed. I was gonna post a picture of my latex but I don’t feel like ripping everything up again. I really just don’t want to keep any part of that bed anymore

So, as you suggest, I could order the king wool topper and try it over some config of my latex. But I worry that the say 2 mediums alone (6" config) wouldn’t be quite firm enough - and of course it wouldn’t fit the cover. I could try the config you suggest (S/M/F on one side, M/M/M on the other) but the bed would be uneven. I could buy another firm to even things out but I don’t want to put any more money into “Franken-bed”.

On reflection you are probably right that its worth just getting the topper and trying it with my latex. There are some issues but it would probably help me get things right. So, objections aside, I guess I will do that. The holdup now is finding and ordering the new bedroom furniture. Do you agree that you have to put latex on slats? Soaring Heart had some decent furniture but again it was pricey…

Thanks for all the help Phoenix! I feel more comfortable going with the wool now that you have looked into it!

Steve