Tired of dreaming about mattresses

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
12

Hi Petschauer,

The list of outlets in post #7 here should help you find some outlets that carry latex mattresses either in the comfort layers or the support cores or both. There are a few other NY lists as well but this one is a bit more narrowed down.

This should also give you a chance to test various latex ILD’s in the comfort layer to confirm that n4 (@ 30 - 34 ILD) is suitable for what you need and prefer since it’s firmer than most would choose.

I would include mattresses that have latex over other support cores (such as innersprings or high quality polyfoam) because this will also give you valuable information about how latex feels and performs in the comfort layers as long as there is no more than an inch of polyfoam over the latex.

Hopefully this will give you some latex to test to help you get a general sense of the type of firmness and layering that works best for you.

13

Petschauer,

Glad this is helping you. I will write more when either Phoenix or I figure out what the mattresses I was laying on at Layers were made up of. I did like the F/M/n4 for back sleeping. I would be quite interested in trying out a F/M/n3. I think it would be good if you can find some mattresses to try out; you might be completely different. Talalay has a different feel than dunlop. It feels softer than dunlop at the same ild. I’m assuming because it is less dense and has more air and sense its substance is more evenly distributed. Talalay has a springy feel while dunlop feels a little flatter, but stable.

I don’t know what to tell you right now on the blended talalay. I have laid on it, but I don’t know their firmness yet to compare it to the n2 and n4 that I have laid on. Sleepez could configure your mattress in all talalay blended or all natural, all dunlop, or a mix as I’m sure you know. But, there is a big difference between the feel of the two processed latex.

I think the F/M/n4 was a nice setup. The firm on the bottom went well with the medium dunlop in the middle for my weight. The n4 proved too firm when used in conjunction with the n5/n5/n4, but on top of the medium dunlop it was soft (contoured) enough to my back. The medium dunlop had enough give on its top side and then firmed up more towards its bottom side nearer the firm layer. I felt the n4 with the medium dunlop under it was good for back sleeping and felt quite supportive while also contouring well for the short hour or so I was on that particular mattress. If you are a back sleeper and desire a little less springiness then this might be a good set up for you. I do like at least the top layer of the bed to be talalay from my experience. I din’t feel the F/M/n4 was too firm for me until I turned to my side. I felt pressure in my shoulder. I did try a much softer blended talalay over dunlop at Layers that I felt contoured quite well, but surprisingly also felt supportive. Though I am not sure I could deal with how much I sunk in. It had 1" celsium talalay + 3" talalay and both I’m sure were really soft. Layering gets complicated and this is why it is highly recommended to try them out for yourself if you can.

Just for your information n4 from savy rest is labeled medium while the same n4 from sleepez is labeled firm.

Good Luck

14

That makes sense, EZ told me that he would recommend for me an “All Blended” Talalay in X-Firm, Firm, Med after I told him that I prefer a firm feeling mattress. I’m 6’5", 220 Lbs. and fall asleep on my side -with left arm under my head- and find my self on my stomach in the morning. So, when I read about your weight, height, similar sleep position AND found that you -so far- prefer the F/M/N4 I started to pay attention. The few all latex mattresses that Sleepy’s had -down stairs hidden in the back- felt way too soft & had a like hammock feeling that I’m just not used to coming from spring mattresses all my life, my last being a firm Chattam & wells Bernadette. I really like the way that Chattam felt for about 4 years or until all sides were flipped and turned several times. That’s why I’m thinking all Latex, because they don’t get depressions, but can I some how find the right combinations to get it to feel something like that Chattam, but doesn’t ware out.

You also mention how the Dunlop is more dense and less springy than the Talalay. I think I would prefer dense over springy because from what you describe Dunlop may have attributes more in line with what my dense and not too springy Chattam has. I want support but I don’t want to fall too deep into the mattress. This is another reason that the F/M/N4 sounds appealing to me and the EZ recommended “All Blended” Talalay in X-Firm, Firm, Med may not provide the denseness I seek. …BUT, I’d like to know what you think of the F/M/N4 “Blended Tallalay” if you ever try that combo out?

Thanks for the list of shops near NY Phoenix, I looked though them all and will try to check some out.

& Thanks again for all the great input here guys.

15

Petschauer,

I don’t think the F/M/n4 is going to be much different if any at all than a F/M/32 ild talatech or radium blended talalay latex from sleepez. The dunlop from savy rest is made by cocolatex and is probably quite similar to latex green’s organic line, that sleepez has. They are both certified organic. I think you are talking about the 100% all natural dunlop they carry which is different than the organic. I would imagine it feels quite similar. The trees are just not certified to be free of chemical fertilizers or pesticides, but both go through the same process to make the latex. The top 3" which you are talking about being blended is the talatech 30/70, natural/synthetic (sbr) or radium 40/60 blend. They do not come rated as n2, n3, n4, or n5 as the 100% all natural talalay comes from Latex International. They come in more specific ILD ranges. Normally 14, 19, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, and 44. They can probably get you anything in between as well. The n2 is between 20-24.99, n3 25-29.99, n4 30-34.99, and n5 35-41.99. The naturals are probably close to n2 22 ild, n3 27 ild, n4 32 ild, and n5 38 ild. Maybe the latex manufacturer test each and every natural latex core so they know their basic range and separate them accordingly and places like sleepez can order them more specificly than the range that is given for them. I don’t know, but they could tell you.

All this being said, the only thing I have heard is that blended talalay might not be quite as springy as 100% all natural talalay. This makes sense because sbr is not as elastic as natural rubber serum. I still don’t think there would be much of a noticeable difference between 1 3" layer of blended vs 100% natural talalay latex over F/M Dunlop.

As far as the x-firm, firm, medium blended all talalay goes, I have not tried it. The F/n4/n4 was not supportive enough for me and that would be labeled as Firm dunlop, firm talalay, firm talalay. Also the n4 over F/M dunlop was not perfect for my side sleeping and you weigh more than I do. It was not soft enough to relieve pressure points on my shoulder, though it might be good for pure stomach sleeping.

16

Hi petschauer,

I think Fluffhead has covered most of the “all latex” comments really well :slight_smile:

It may be worthwhile though to test a hybrid mattress which has a firm innerspring with latex as the comfort layers. The reason for the suggestion is that you seem to have liked the Chattam & Wells which would have used a firm innerspring probably with softer foam (a common “firm” construction) … and perhaps even some latex … in the comfort layers. Of course your version could have also had firmer foam on top of a firm innerspring which would generally make it “ultra firm”.

Most people would consider a Talalay support core to be closer to the feel or springiness of an innerspring than Dunlop which has a less lively feeling than either. Several of the outlets in the list … and in particular Scott Jordon … would be a good place to test this as they carry all latex (Talalay over Dunlop) as well as innersprings with Talalay comfort layers and both the firmness of the support and the comfort layers can be adjusted.

Other than that … there’s little I can add to Fluffheads excellent post.

Phoenix

17

Phoenix,

My wife and I went to Layers yesterday to try the mattresses out again when I had more time and wasn’t rushed. We tried both the L series plus and the L series again. 1" celsium, 3" talalay, 2" hr dunlop, and 6" dunlop for the L series plus. 3" talalay, 2" hr dunlop, and 5" foam for the L series.

First the L series plus. The plush side again felt extremely soft and I sunk in a lot until I got to the support underneath. I did feel supported once I got there, but I do not like the feeling of sinking in so far. My wife did not like the plush side at all. The medium firm side is not firm. I realized that it was not supporting my waist area and this is the feeling I was having when I mentioned last time that I wasn’t settling in. I think I am heavy enough to compress the plush side even though it is 4" total of a comfort layer to get to the support layer and feel somewhat supported. I think my waist is sinking in more than my shoulders on the medium firm side and it leaves me feeling not fully supported. Neither one leaves pressure points for side sleeping.

The L series. The plush side was too soft and drastic a change in layers for my wife. I did not even lay on that side as that is the same way it felt to me last time. The medium firm side again felt the best to me out of the latex mattresses they carry and it was the same for my wife. I feel that it gives some pressure relief and then I come into the support layer and it feels more firm at this point and supportive. It was fine for side sleeping and supportive to our backs. This side still does not seem perfect though. I think I would like a little more springiness in the mattress. My wife still felt that the n5/n5/n4 from savy was much better than any of these. She definitely likes the springiness of all talalay. I think that the L series medium firm is a more dead feeling than the all dunlop base with talalay on top.

The lady working there was able to get the owner on the phone and get the ild’s for the layers.

L series: 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 5" polyurethane

Medium firm: 24 ILD/ 25 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons)
Medium Plush: 14 ILD/ 24 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons)

L series plus: 1" celsium/ 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 6" dunlop

Medium Firm: 17 ILD/ 24ILD/ 30 ILD/ 38 ILD
Medium Plush: 17 ILD/ 17 ILD/ 27 ILD/ 38 ILD

18

Hi Fluffhead,

I’m glad you finally got the ILD’s for the mattresses … I still hadn’t heard back.

L series plus commnts: 1" celsium/ 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 6" dunlop
Medium Firm: 17 ILD/ 24ILD/ 30 ILD/ 38 ILD
Medium Plush: 17 ILD/ 17 ILD/ 27 ILD/ 38 ILD

The medium firm side would more typically be called soft. Latex International calls their 24 ILD soft and with an extra inch of even softer latex on top, it would definitely qualify as soft even though 24 ILD for most people is on the upper end of the “soft” range. The layers underneath this by most standards would be called medium and firm (Dunlop is more variable than a specific ILD). The plush version with 4" of 17 ILD would be too thick and soft for most people for best alignment and with your weight and your wife’s primary back sleeping this would almost certainly be the case. You are probably too far away from the support layers for best alignment and this certainly seems to confirm that a 4" comfort layer is too thick for good alignment.

L series comments: 3" talalay/ 2" hr dunlop/ 5" polyurethane
Medium firm: 24 ILD/ 25 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons) the polyfoam on the bottom translates to 1.56 lb/ft3 density and 45 ILD
Medium Plush: 14 ILD/ 24 ILD/ (25 ekg/200 newtons)

The plush side is the softest talalay over soft Dunlop and as you mentioned would be too soft for most people even though the Dunlop middle layer would be firmer than Talalay in the same ILD.

The medium plush still has “soft” talalay on top with “soft” Dunlop under it. Because the comfort layer is thinner than the L plus, it is closer to the support layers and still in the range of the ILD that gives you good pressure relief. While 2" of soft Dunlop would be firmer than Talalay … it may still be a bit on the soft side with a 3" soft layer over it and along with the “dead” feeling may have been part of the reason it didn’t feel quite right. As you mentioned … the middle and lower layers here would not be nearly as lively as Talalay. This would likely be better with only 2" of 24 on top for both of you and with the “help” of the softer Dunlop under it would likely still be good for your pressure relief and your wife’s alignment. Of course the middle thinner layer of Dunlop and the firm polyfoam under it would be the reason it is less lively.

Adding in your Savvy Rest comments from before …

[quote]
I switched to the F/M/n4 bed to see the difference and I immediately felt more relaxed, while my wife got onto the n5/n5/n4. After a while we switched and I got back on the all talalay mattress. It did not feel as though it moved around as much as the F/n4/n4 from the previous day, but I think it was too firm for me. I just felt like I couldn’t sink in. Once my wife got up from the F/M/n4 mattress that she liked a lot from the previous day she told me immediately she liked the all talalay n5/n5/n4 the most which surprised me. She definitely likes the springyness and the firmness.
[/quote].

This all seems to point to a 3" comfort layer in the range of 24 ILD or perhaps slightly firmer (N3?) being better than the N4 for pressure relief.

This too seems to confirm too that firmer middle and lower layers work well or both of you with 3" top layers.

The unknown is still the effect of a 2" comfort layer and if I was to go with this for better alignment purposes than a 3" layer … I would slightly soften the middle layer compared to the N5 Talalay or M Dunlop that seemed best with a 3" comfort layer.

It seems like N5/N5/N3 in natural or the equivalent in blended talalay could be a good choice with a 3" comfort layer or N5/N4/N3 or the equivalent in blended could make a good choice with a 2" comfort layer (although this is extrapolation based on testing 3" comfort layers). Because springiness seems to be preferable, if you add any Dunlop to the mix it would likely be better to keep it to the bottom layer.

Phoenix

19

Phoenix,

Can you explain the difference you have experienced on these two configurations. n5/n5/n3 in 3"/3"/3" vs. n5/n4/n3 in 3"/3"/2". I know the n5/n5/n4 was too firm and even my wife felt it was quite firm when she laid on her side and felt pressure. I wonder how much of a difference the n3 will be. Was the n4 so firm because the n5 did not give much whereas the n4 over the medium dunlop was better as the M dunlop layer gave in more? It seems that 3" is a good thickness and I could imagine that n3 could be nice if it contoured me more while being firm enough to be slightly supportive also. If it was blended would it be better to go 28/36/40 or 28/38/38?

The n5/n4/n3 seems intriguing. I know the F/n4/n4 was not supportive enough but I could imagine 2" of 28 over the n5/n5/n4 bed could possibly make it perfect and that would be just about the same feeling as a n5/n4/n3 with the n3 at 2" thick. I’m only concerned because I think of the n4/n4 layer and we’re only talking about an inch less. I realize that the n4 has a slight give with some support as well and when you make 6" of it, it is contouring enough for us, but it is too thick of medium firm latex without enough support in it for us. My way of thinking is that 28 is soft enough for contouring and maybe with the n4 closer to us and to the n5 it will feel more supportive. However I am slightly concerned about having 5" of a comfort layer, and I use that loosely knowing that n4 should be supportive as well, before we get to the n5 layer. But I haven’t experienced it and maybe it will be perfect. We have only been on 4" of a true comfort layer and it was too soft all together before it was supported by a firmer layer.

If you or anyone else has experience with this setup or can offer some advise and guidance on this we would appreciate it. These seem to be two different ways of making a mattress. One changing a little between layers and one changing a little more drastically between layers, but not a huge difference.

Also when it comes to radium vs. latex international I do not know which one to go with. I think, just because of what I’ve read that we would like to stick with LI, but it seems that sometimes there can be a discrepancy of the quality a distributor gets in their latex and sometimes they might say one is better than the other because of the quality batch they got in.

If you think there is a better ild configuration that could be made from blended please let me know or what the like of a n5/n4/n3 is if I am incorrect.

20

Hi Fluffhead,

The ILD of a foam is measured at 25% compression so it is only accurate if you happen to only sink 25% into the layer. Because all foam is softer when you sink into it less and firmer when you sink into it more … this can be taken advantage of with changing layer thickness.

The N3 is about 27 ILD (it takes about 27 lbs on a 50 sq in round “foot” to sink in 1.5" into a 6" layer), it would only take roughly 18 lbs to sink in 1" into the same layer. This means that the first 3" of compression (the 2" layer and the first inch of the next layer) would average about 24 ILD. Because the middle layer is already compressed by an inch, the next say 1.5" of compression would take @ another 22 lbs (total of 40 lbs). This means that the foam below the first 3" is effectively 40 ILD. While this is not exactly accurate because layers compress in proportion simultaneously rather than just sequentially … a thinner top layer with slightly softer foam under it acts as if it’s a little thicker without giving up support.

So with a softer middle layer the 2" comfort layer would act as if it was a little thicker in terms of pressure relief (though still slightly less than a 3" layer on a firmer middle layer for most people) but would be more supportive than a 3" layer over firmer foam. It would also be more adaptable to the support needs of different positions as there would be less “soft stuff” above the firmer support layers in the “flatter” sleeping positions like back and stomach. In other words the 2" over a softer middle layer would be more towards a “progressive” construction while the 3" over a firmer middle layer would be a more towards a “differential” construction (the different ways of making a mattress you were suspecting)

The N3 averages about 27 ILD @25% while the N4 averages about 32 ILD @ 25% so there would be a noticeable improvement in pressure relief but not a major one. 24 ILD blended would be more pressure relieving yet.

The N4 is a firmer foam and is more typically used as a support layer rather than a comfort layer. It’s effective softness would be “modified” by the ILD of the layer below it. Because the N5 has an average ILD of 38 @25% and the M dunlop is probably softer @ 25% compression … the N4 will feel a little softer on the Dunlop as long as you don’t sink in too far (based on weight or sleeping position). Because Dunlop gets firmer faster than Talalay … at deeper compression (past 25%) the Dunlop would “overtake” the Talalay in term of how soft the layering was.

Although the 3" seems to work well … the 2" also has real potential but there are so many variables that it’s hard to know for sure how it would be for the “real life” sleeping of a particular individual. If you went with a 28 ILD @ 25% blended Talalay (which is typically considered firmer than normal for a comfort layer of an “average” individual … I would tend towards the more progressive layering (28/36/40) although it wouldn’t be a huge difference.

Adding 2" of 28 over the N5/N5/N4 would add a new variable of thickness and it would be softer on top (better pressure relief) but less supportive than N5/N5/N4 by itself. It would also have an extra layer of N5 to replace the mattress base (what was under the mattress) compared to the 2" version of the N5/N4/N3 which would be slightly less supportive and could increase the tendency of the pelvic area to sink in too far relative to the shoulders although it may be marginally softer.

So overall I would stick with a 8-9" mattress (more supportive) with upper 20’s on top in either a 2" or 3" version with the lower layers adjusted accordingly.

I wouldn’t worry in the slightest about whether the Talalay was LI or Radium as they are equivalent to each other.

The key in all of this is “enough”. Too much of either pressure relief or support leads to too little of the other and vice versa.

I hope this has helped narrow down some of the variables and “competing” layering schemes.

Phoenix

21

Phoenix,

I think we have made a decision to try a 3"/3"/2" mattress. Configured to 38/32/27.

We think a cotton stretch cover sounds great for a cover as opposed to a quilted wool cover. At least we can fluff up a wool topper or take it off or replace it easier than we could a quilted wool cover. I would assume it would eventually compress down. I think it would be nice to be closer to the latex if it doesn’t make us hot. Maybe the wool topper could help if we get hot and need some wool to help regulate the temperature.

Do you have any thoughts on this configuration. Should the ILD’s be changed in the slightest bit. It seems that this is an economical way to go and we can test it against the n5/n5/n4 (38/38/32) since it will be made in split layers. If we learn that 3"/3"/3" are better for us there are options available to us with the stretch cover which we preferred in the beginning. It seems to me that the 3"/3"/2" could work nicely for us.

I still have read in places where 100% natural talalay is more elastic, springy, than blended. Do you feel there is a difference. The only place we have tried blended is at Layers and that was on beds that were either too soft or beds with dunlop over poly. Nevertheless they didn’t feel that springy.

Do you have any thoughts on who offers a breathable waterproof pad?

22

Hi Fluffhead,

In theory … this seems that it could work as per our previous discussions. In practice however your experience may be different because of the many variables in sleeping positions and each person’s different sensitivities to both pressure issues and alignment. Layer thickness can play just as big a role as layer softness and since this is an untested layering for you … your experience may vary from theory. The basis for the possibility is that a 2" layer seems to be in the range of overall thickness that both you and your wife can build a layering scheme that would work well for both of you. The “risk” for you is that the top layer isn’t pressure relieving enough even though your experience seems to indicate that this would be OK. The “risk” for your wife would be that the top layer wouldn’t be soft enough for her lighter weight (even though the thickness is typical for back sleeping). Based on your experiences though … the “odds” say that it would likely be OK although I would put being “right” over the small difference in cost which spread out over the life of a mattress will not be that significant. Of course I wouldn’t bet my house on it … but I’d throw $5 into the pot :slight_smile:

I also think that a non quilted cover gives you options that quilting built into the cover doesn’t offer … although there are many who hold different opinions about this (involves different fire retardant methods and introduces variables that are slightly different from what may have been tested etc.).

When it comes down to the final details or “exact” ILD’s bear in mind that there is no such thing as a layer that is “exactly” a certain ILD and that a difference of 4 or less is not really noticeable for most people. With details that are that “fine” I recommend that people go with their instincts or “gut feeling” based on what you have tested rather than a recommendation from someone who has never “felt” what they felt. In general you will have a sense once you’ve tested various layerings of the ones that were close to the edge of either pressure relief or alignment and whether it’s “safe” to adjust a little bit in one direction or another for either pressure relief or alignment. The 3" layer may be safer (because you’ve tested it). The 2" layer may be more “accurate” but a little riskier.

I would also take into account any recommendations or comments from the actual outlet you plan to purchase from as they all have a lot of experience with a wide variety of different people using the specific materials and ILD’s that they generally use or have available (although most can custom order something different) in combination with the layering patterns that they are familiar with. In the end … while it always desirable to get it right the first time … it’s also important to have the ability to “fix” any mistakes because the process of choosing a mattress is never an exact science … even though testing and some careful research can put the odds much more in your favor. sleeping experience over time can be different from time spent in a showroom. Careful testing can make it very likely that you will make the best choices the first time but there are always exceptions and it’s a good idea to be prepared for this just in case and “build it in” to your purchase choices. Layer exchanges, refund policies, or a local manufacturer who will change out a layer or make other adjustments are all ways that mistakes can be fixed with little risk or expense (although there will usually be some).

In terms of heat … layers that are firmer (in relationship to a particular weight) tend to “wrap you up” a little less and are usually less of a heat problem. Talalay latex is also the most breathable foam so here too the heat issue is reduced or eliminated for most people. Because of the breathability of wool, this can help with heat issues for those who are very sensitive or have a “hot engine” inside them. Mattress pads or protectors, sheets, and bedding can all make a significant difference to heat issues without having to adjust the mattress itself.

100% Talalay is more springy or elastic than blended but with a single layer it wouldn’t be noticeable for most people. With a whole mattress however the difference would be more noticeable. This could be a positive or negativ depending on the preference of an individual and on how they interact with the mattress. What can be “springy” for on person can feel “bouncy” for another or even “dead” to another depending on perception, what they’re used to, and on different body shapes and weights. The 100% natural is a denser material as well and not quite as “stiff” as blended which also means that there is a greater tendency to sink in a little deeper. Pure Latex Bliss is a mattress brand owned by the largest manufacturer of Talalay in North America and they have a blog which has an article here which describes the difference from their perspective. Note that what they call “natural” is blended and “all natural” is their 100% natural Talalay.

Mattress pads or protectors are a series of tradeoffs. The “waterproof” versions that have a membrane (like gore-tex_ which allows water vapor through but blocks water are less breathable than those that are made of wool which are water resistant but far more breathable. For most people the thinner membrane type are a good compromise but for those who want the most breathability then a water resistant protector or pad is the way to go. More in this thread here (post #5 in particular with actual temperature measurements), and post #2 here, about the tradeoffs involved. A forum search on “protectors” (without the quotes) will bring up more.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

PS: I deleted the other post which was a duplicate and somehow created a new thread. Hope that’s OK

23

Phoenix,

I will talk to Shawn again today to order our bed. I am ordering the 8" special with one side 2"-24, 3"-36, 3"-40 and the other side 2"-28, 3"-32, 3"-40.

We have now tried the pure latex bliss pamper with and with out 2" and 3" topper, nature, and beautiful.

Pamper is 1" 19 ild over 6" of 40 ild. It was nicer than the 3"n4/3"n5/3"n5 for me and my wife liked it as well. It would have been nice to have a little thicker comfort layer. It felt supportive and my muscles could relax, but we could use a little bit more of a comfort layer. With a 3" 14 ild topper it was too soft and not supportive. With a 2" topper it was okay, but a little on the soft side. The pamper alone seemed as though it could be really close if it had 1 more inch of a comfort layer.

Beautiful is 3" 14 ild over 2" 24 ild over 6" of 36 ild and it was too soft and way to thick of a comfort layer, 5".

Nature is 2" 19 ild over 1" 28 ild over 6" 36 ild. It felt pretty good. I felt it could have been a hair more supportive. We both felt it was pressure relieving in all positions, but its softness made it harder to flip over and we felt a little too cradled.

I think we are starting to feel as though 2" of a comfort layer would be just right or a firmer, maybe n3, as you suggest for a 3" top layer. It seems that when it goes over 3" it is just too much foam without the support and too soft of a 3" inch layer is just too confining.

I feel confident that we could make a perfect mattress from what I mentioned at the top. It would be great to know exactly which way to go, but we don’t. Do you have any thoughts on any of the qualities we felt in these beds or the bed I would like to order knowing that a couple layers would need to be swapped once we knew what was right. Shawn and I are being very upfront with each other about special ordering and swapping and we both understand each others side. I don’t know where else to go to test and I don’t know which one would be right for us without trying them. I wish I did to make it better for both sleepez and us, but I don’t. I don’t think a company or us want to go in knowing we are going to have to swap, but it just seems like that is the case. I am okay with that, but it would be better for sleepez if we knew exactly what we wanted.

24

Hi Fluffhead,

Just for reference (in case others are following along) … the Beautiful has 3" of 19 ILD on the top rather than 14 according to the specs I have. In your case it’s not so important though because either way it’s too thick and soft in the comfort zone.

It seems clear to me based on your testing that a 2" comfort layer is the closest to your ideal. Of course the ILD of this layer and the layers under it are still to be fine tuned but it seems that softer latex can work well as long as it’s not too thick and the support layers under it are firm enough. It also seems that the support layers need to be more than the 28/36 (average about 33) in the Nature with 2" of 19. This also tells me that the ideal 2" layer doesn’t need a lot of “help” from the layers below it.

As you mentioned … if you do go thicker (to 3") it would make sense to make up for it with more firmness and I clearly agree that more than 3" seems to be out of your “zone”. Given what you have mentioned with the Pamper (alone and with toppers), Nature, and Beautiful though … along with your other testing that showed a clear preference for firmer comfort layers that were 3" thick, it seems that a 2" comfort layer that was “adjusted” up or down with the layers below it would be very close to your “ideal”.

I also really like what you have done with the mattress you are planning to order. You have clearly chosen layering that gave you as many options as possible for fine tuning and there is no doubt in my mind that the “ideal” for both of you is in these layers. I also wouldn’t be surprised at all if the “perfect” layering for each/both of you is possible with the layers you have chosen but if not you would certainly know which if any need to be exchanged. While this is outside of the “normal” range of choices that are offered … I also know that as far as possible Shawn will “stretch” as far as he can within the limits of the prices he offers.

I think your choices are good ones :slight_smile:

Phoenix

25

I’m still paying close attention to this post. Thanks to the both of you for all the great detail and personal experience. My future purchase will be greatly assisted by the knowledge gained in this post.

Hay, the 2" top layer idea has me thinking about the overall adjustability of the SleepEZ 10,000.
Technically -I’m guessing- one could fine tune the top 3 layers with (3) separate and distinct 2" layers with the bottom layer consisting of (1) 3" layer.

Something like this perhaps?
(1) 3" layer of 40 & (3) 2" layers of each 36, 32, 28. -or-
(1) 3" layer of 44 & (3) 2" layers of each 40, 36, 32.

And the 13,000 could afford this option to an even grater extent. The ability to fine tune (5) or even (6) separate and distinct layers of latex.
Could this be the perfect (5) layer latex mattress? …(1) 3" layer of 44, (1) 3" layer of 40 & (3) 2" layers of each 36, 32, 28.

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Sorry, duplicate post.

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Hi Petschauer,

I don’t think this would be possible in the price range of the SleepEz line and you would be looking more at a custom designed mattress which would likely cost more.

One of the reasons that the Select Sleep line has such good value is that it contains standardized layer thicknesses (3" layers and a top layer of 2" in the case of the 9000) and a specific range of firmness levels (soft medium, firm, Xfirm) which can accommodate the needs of most people. While I know that Shawn will custom order a firmness level that is outside the “norm” (for those who are willing to wait a bit if he doesn’t have it in inventory) … I don’t think this would apply to custom layer thicknesses outside of the design of the different models.

Of course you could always ask him but it would surprise me.

Phoenix

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Phoenix,

We are in Lexington Kentucky all day today. Spur of the moment drive led us here. Anything to try here that might tell us exactly what we want.

Thanks

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Hi Fluffhead,

That’s quite a drive for a “spur of the moment” trip :slight_smile:

I don’t know of anything in Lexington that would tell you any more than what you’ve laid on already.

There’s no factory directs there that I’m aware of and the best latex choice I know of would be Healthy Back which has their own versions of the Pure Latex bliss which you’ve already tried.

Phoenix

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Phoenix,

I tried to order the bed yesterday in a configuration that I believe we wouldn’t need to return anything. I had a chance to go back to Savvy Rest because I was near the area yesterday. I don’t care for the wool mattress encasing. It is nice, but after trying several beds without it and just a cotton/rayon cover, we feel the latex much more and appreciate it. Also I was helping some people move and was feeling a little sore and definitely wanted some pressure relief when I was testing mattresses. I talked to my wife about pressure relief and she agreed she thinks it is beneficial and we talked about our experience with the pamper and nature pure latex bliss models. We both liked the nature though it cradled us a little to much for our liking, but it was comfortable. On the other hand we like the feel of a firm mattress to some degree. The pamper was nice, but a little too firm. While I was at savvy rest I noted that the n4/n5/n5 did not let my middle sink in enough while any of the combinations with M dunlop or n4 in the middle layer did. I also know that the nature plb model was good with 36 ild in the middle with its 1" of 28 over it and 2" of 19 over it. Though I believe it would have been better with 3" of 36 over 3" of 40 for us. I remember previously writing that it could have been a tad more supportive, but that was coming right off of the pamper, 1" of 19 over 6" of 40. The n4/n4/n5 from a previous trip to savvy didn’t seem to be as supportive with 3" of 32 in the middle and 3" of 32 on top. This leads me to thinking that 3" of 36 in the middle over 3" of firmer latex such as 40 is a good base for us if we are going to put 3" of something else over it. I tried n2/n5/n5 at savvy, but for my soreness at the time yesterday after moving it didn’t feel perfect, actually n2/n4/n5 felt better, but not as supportive. I still notice a difference in the n4 as a middle layer and the n5 as one and I think I am better aligned with a little softer layer than n5 as the middle layer. I laugh now, thinking how mattresses feel different depending on your bodies condition at the time you try them and the time span we have had of trying all these mattresses. It is a long investment.

Not that much of this is new information, but it does make me think that 2" of 24 or 28 over 3" of 32 over 3" of 40 is a good combination for us for an 8" mattress, which you have mentioned for a while. Maybe even 1"19/1"24- 28/3"32-36/3"40 would be nice also. We now think a layer of pressure relief might be important. So it seems that 1"-1.5"19/2"28/3"36/3"40 would be a great bed for us. I think this would give us the support we need, the feel we like, and the pressure relief we prefer without the complete cradling feel. Any thoughts from you on this would be nice, but these are my instincts. I at least think the 2"28/3"36/3"40 is a good base for us to add a thin pressure relief layer too and 19 seems to fit that bill, but realizing that 2" on the nature was a bit too much and knowing it only had 1" of 28 under it.

Well now to the difficulty. Shawn can order a 8" special in 28/36/40 and can even make the cotton casing bigger to fit another layer of latex since they already offer them and have them made specifically for them. On top of that the website claims to sell 1" and 1.5" of blended talalay toppers, but it appears the website is overdue for a revamp and they no longer offer them :frowning: . So with my hopes dashed on the phone of finally ordering a bed I’m trying to find out if you know anyone who sells 1" or maybe 1.5", but I think 1" will be right, of 19 ild LI or radium blended talalay latex. I know sleep like a bear does, but there prices seem to be pretty high. I don’t know if foam sweet foam, arizona mattresses, myfoammattress.com, or anyone else would carry it for cheaper and if there is a member on here that sells it.

Thank you so much for your ongoing help. We appreciate it a lot.

Fluffhead

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Hi Fluffhead,

I can completely relate to this and have often experienced it in my own testing. Our subjective perceptions and the “moods” and circumstances of our days makes it very difficult to differentiate what is the “objective” part of what we are feeling and what is the “subjective” part. The subjective part can have so many variables that it’s easy to design to increasingly small detail that in the end is more about how we change from day to day than it is about the mattress itself.

You have clearly done some very accurate testing that takes into account many of the finer details about different mattresses and have come to a point that you can recognize consistent patterns in different constructions and layering. This however can never fully take into account how our sensitivities and needs change within a range over the course of days , weeks, and months. The challenge then for those who are designing to this level of detail is to choose a layer pattern that seems to best accommodate all the changes that we go through on a constant basis.

The difficulty of 1" layers is both that they are not as easily available (in talalay at least) and that they are also more fragile and susceptible to tearing and damage from mishandling (which is probably part of the reason why they are not as easily available).

Besides local manufacturers which may carry them (and not list them on their website) … local foam shops are sometimes a good source. SLAB carries them (as you mentioned) and so does Foam Online. Electropedic also uses 1.1" layers in their mattress and you may be able to buy a layer from them.

Shawn has mentioned to me that they are overhauling their site and that some of the information and pictures are out of date but that is an ongoing project with almost all websites (including mine which always has more that I want to do than what I’ve done) as materials, information, and products change.

When you are working outside the basic design of a mattress manufacturer … it can become rather difficult to source the best combination of a reliable supplier and the material and thickness that you want. There’s quite a difference between mattress manufacturers and foam suppliers and while each has their own strengths … most mattress manufacturers will focus on the materials and layer thicknesses that are part of their designs because their primary goal of course is to sell mattresses rather than mattress materials.

So I would certainly call any manufacturer (including those you’ve listed) or foam shop that looks promising or to just go with a foam supplier that charges a little more but can save you a lot of time and research.

Let us know what you come up with because there are always others that will choose to go down the path of designing and building their own mattress to finer detail than “average” and it’s always an ongoing challenge to find the best suppliers of the raw foam and materials to do so.

Phoenix