Hoping you can provide some guidance to a Canadian from Northern Ontario who needs a new queen-sized mattress.
Having done a bunch of (too much?) reading the past few days online (and now wishing I had stumbled upon The Mattress Underground sooner), I am intrigued by the idea of a latex mattress.
My main problem is that local options are pretty much limited to box stores that carry a limited number of big name models (Serta, Beauty Rest, Tempur-Pedic, Sealy). No one around here seems to carry any latex mattresses, or latex hybrids for that matter. (Closest places with locations recommended on TMU are 4 hours away in Sudbury/North Bay or 8 hours away in Vaughan, ON.) Ordering online is definitely a possibility, if I can get past the “can’t try before I buy” reality.
I’m a heavier (5"8", 250+ lbs) primarily stomach / sometimes side sleeper. I like a fairly firm mattress in that I don’t like to sink in too much. Not a fan of pillow-tops or the feeling of being “stuck”. Sleeping cool and edge support are important, the former moreso than the latter.
Trying to put it in a nutshell, here are two questions I have:
If I opt to order a mattress online, it is reasonable to make a blind leap from innerspring to latex? Would a latex hybrid be a better transition option?
If I opt to make the best out of my local options (time is a bit of the essence), is there any guidance for navigating the “big brands”?
Being a stomach sleeper primarily and also of a higher BMI, it would make sense to focus on something that is in the “firmer” range of surface comfort.
A higher BMI presents special challenges and generally requires firmer materials (in the support layers especially). This could be firmer latex or innersprings (the type of support component would be a personal preference and in the right design either could be suitable) or even a zoned construction. The same overall guidelines apply with higher weights though that PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) along with using high quality durable materials that will maintain their feel and performance for longer periods of time are the way to make the best choices. Heavier people in general will need firmer and thicker comfort layers and firmer support layers than those who are lighter and because no materials will last as long with much higher weights the quality and durability of the materials and components is even more important than normal. I wouldn’t “rule out” any types of mattress and base your choices on your own personal testing. Post #3 here has more information and suggestions about heavier weights that is worth reading.
The key will be finding componentry that will be of appropriate quality for your specific situation, which will then give you the best chance at have a successful comfort life, so I would always make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components. Those in a higher BMI range want to be especially prudent in the choice of their components, and there is more information about selecting a mattress in the durability guidelines here.
Firmer and more resilient materials can help avoid the feeling of being “stuck”, so a firmer, higher density polyfoam or latex configuration for the upper comfort layers could be appropriate to consider.
In very general terms … the materials, layers, and components of a sleeping system that are closer to your skin will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin and softer mattresses or foam toppers will tend to be more “insulating” and for some people can sleep warmer than firmer versions of the same material. There is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials and components that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range. You’d probably wish to avoid softer materials that allow you to sink in too deeply and insulate you more, and also more than likely want to avoid visco-elastic memory foam in the uppermost layers.
As for edge reinforcement, most latex mattresses will not have a specific edge reinforcement system. While the edge will feel “softer” when sitting upon the product, it will be resilient and you can still sleep quite close to the edge of an all-latex mattress without “rolling off”, due to the supportive and point elastic nature of the latex. If you desire to choose a unit with an innerspring unit, many of the pocketed spring units commonly used in the “hybrid” latex mattresses either have a firmer polyfoam edge reinforcement system, or contain firmer springs along the perimeter.
This all depends upon your own personal preferences and sensitivities, and also what type of innerspring mattress you’re currently used to. The layers closest to your skin will have the most dramatic impact upon your comfort, so whether or not your choosing an all-latex mattress or a hybrid, if latex is used on the top of the mattress and your old mattress didn’t use latex in the uppermost comfort layers, it will be a change in comfort. With that being said, using a strong pocketed spring unit with latex on top will be “closer to home” of what you’re used to than switching to an all-latex mattress. Post #28 lists some of the differences between latex versus springs.
My general advice would be to avoid the major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta, as they all tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (along with the major retailers that focus on them as well) regardless of how they may feel in a showroom along with any mattress where you aren’t able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here). If you do decide to purchase from one of these brands, I would recommend selecting something using a low amount of low-density foam and something that is “firmer” in surface comfort, using the guidelines as expressed in the mattress shopping tutorial here.
If you do decide to look online, I would consider using the expertise of the members listed in post #21 here who are all very experienced and knowledgeable and specialize in providing the type of help and guidance on the phone that can help you make good choices. There are a wide range of latex options included in the choices there and I believe that all of them compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency. There is also a list of online mattress sources for Canadians in post #21 here.
I’ve reached out to both Dormio in Southern Ontario and North Star Bedding in Sudbury as my only local options really are the “big box store big brands”.
I will also do some more reading using the links you have provided.
I’ve already heard back from Dormio. Impressed by their quick response and the fact that their rep seems very knowledgeable and willing to work with me.
She made a few recommendations, with rationales for each. The one that is standing out the most is the Millerton from their legacy collection. It’s listed online at $2700 CAD (before taxes) - which is at the top of my budget.
Based on the info I provided in my original post, do any red flags seem to stand out?
The Nottingham from their Premium Gold collection and the Patrician from their Premium Plus collection also seem like they might be good fits. The fact that layers can be interchanged to customize the feel might not be such a bad thing in my case of “buying without trying”. That said, prices are not listed online and I suspect they would blow my budget. (I’ve emailed back to inquire just the same.)
Thanks again for the awesome info on this site.
ETA … after some more online research, I’m now wondering if any of these Dormio options will be firm enough. SleepEZ recommends 6" extra firm dunlop + 3" firm dunlop + 3" firm or medium talalay based on my characteristics if I go with their 13" custom mattress.
All of the mattresses you are considering use high quality and durable materials and there are no lower quality materials or weak links in any of them.
While I don’t make specific suggestions or recommendations … there is more about the 3 most important parts of “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you, which of course would include the price.
There is also some really good information about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of comfort and PPP in post #2 here that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for once you actually sleep on your mattress in “real life”.
When you can’t test a mattress in person, then the most reliable source of guidance I’ll recommend is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer/retailer, as opposed to emailing or online charts. These manufacturers will have your best interests at heart and can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else, and you can ask them for their rationale and ask for comparisons to the recommendations of other brands and why they might be recommending what they do within their particular lineup. At that time you can also inquire about the return/exchange policies of each company you are considering, just in case things don’t turn out as well as you would like.
After a number of detailed emails back and forth with Laura from Dormio, I’ve just ordered a Nottingham mattress and Premium foundation.
I’ve kept the 3" firm, 3" medium, 3" soft, 2" extra soft configuration as listed on the website and as recommended by Laura as this will give me the most options to test out within my 90-day comfort exchange period. (In my particular case, being able to interchange the layers to customize the feel seems like a definite plus!) I suspect, if anything, I may end up needing to change the 3" soft or 2" extra soft layer for another firm layer, but we’ll see how things play out.
Even though the Nottingham is currently on sale, I was able to also apply the Mattress Underground discount to both the mattress and foundation. The total price with tax, delivery, etc. was a bit of upfront sticker shock … but I’m choosing to look at it from a different perspective. I will likely have this mattress and foundation for 20 years or more, but even if I only keep them for 10, it will cost me a little more than $1 a day … and I think a good night’s sleep is worth well more that that!
Congratulations on your new mattress! :cheer: You certainly chose something using very high quality materials. As you’re aware, I think highly of Dormio and the advice they provide, and I’ll be interested in learning about your progress and adjustments to your new mattress. And I’m happy that Dormio also allowed you to use your TMU discount on top of their sale price!
So my Dormio Nottingham queen-size mattress and 7" foundation arrived today.
Getting the foundation in place was relatively easy, but definitely takes at least two people as does the latex mattress assembly.
it took us about 40 minutes to put the mattress itself together. Unwrapping and juggling the latex pieces into place was a bit of a workout!
As my bed has a footboard, it took three of us to get the top and bottom pieces of the mattress encasement zippered together once the latex was placed. Two of us basically lifted the bottom end up enough to give the third person room to use the zipper to attach the pieces and start zipping. Once that was accomplished, the rest of the zipping was a breeze.
The moment of truth was lying on the finished mattress for the first time. Fortunately my gamble of purchasing a latex mattress without having the option to test any in advance seems like it might pay off. I enjoy the feel of lying on latex! (Insert big sigh of relief here.)
I currently have the mattress set bottom up as 3" firm, 3" soft, 3" medium, 2" extra soft. Will report back once I’ve slept this way for a while.
Thanks for the update regarding your Dormio mattress. I’m glad that you had a bit of help putting everything together, as pulling too hard on a piece of latex can lead to a tear where you’re gripping the product.
I’ve been sleeping on my new latex mattress for about 1.5 weeks now. All in all, it’s been a positive experience … I’m definitely sleeping better than I was on my old very firm inner spring mattress. That said, I’m not certain if my current layer configuration is the best one for me based on two things:
First off, I tend to sleep more on the right side of my bed than the left and I’ve noticed that the ride side has “softened up” significantly more than the left side. Should I be concerned about such a noticeable difference in such a short period of time?
Secondly, no matter what position I sleep in, it feels as though my hip/butt/stomach might be sinking in a little too much while my shoulder/back/chest might not be sinking in quite enough. I occasionally wake up with minor shoulder and/or lower back pain … though it’s much less noticeable than the back / hip pain I was experiencing with my old mattress.
My current layering combination is (top to bottom) 2" extra soft (55 kg/m^3), 3" medium (75 kg/m^3), 3" soft (65 kg/m^3), and 3" firm (90 kg/m^3). The extra soft piece covers the whole mattress, the others are split for dual comfort options.
I’m debating which of the following configurations I should try next:
Option 1: ES, S, M, F on both sides (this is the configuration used to markets the mattress)
Option 2: ES, S, F, M on both sides
Option 3: ES, M, F, S on both sides (though I’m reluctant to put soft on the bottom, even for a short time)
Option 4: ES, M, F, F (on the right) and ES, S, M, S (on the left)
Which do you think might be the best option for me? Is there one you might recommend that I haven’t thought of?
To be honest, I didn’t find the whole layer positioning process to be as easy as most online videos make it look, so I would like to limit the number of times I need to do this in the foreseeable future!
I do have a 90 day comfort guarantee that will allow me to exchange a layer; so arrangements like Option 4 could be made permanent relatively easily if I find the “perfect combo”. Dormio also has a zoned-comfort option for the next to base layer that I could look into. So, for example, I could have the upper third of that layer be medium or soft, and the middle third firm, and the final third medium or firm. Before going there though, I figure I should do some more testing with what I have.
Thanks in advance for your insight. I find it very helpful to have this site as a sounding board so that my “ducks are in a row” before I contact the company directly.
The initial loss of “false firmness” in an all-latex mattress will be due mostly to the mattress covering and any fiber (in your case wool) under the covering. The latex itself will not change significantly, although there can be a bit of “settling” of everything during the first few months, but it would be very odd for latex to have much change in plushness when brand new.
I’m guessing this is mostly when you’re sleeping on your side, as opposed to your stomach, which was your other preferred sleeping position. It may truly be the case that you are sinking in a bit more than you prefer, and it may also be the case of “learned alignment” and what you perceive as sinking in too deeply could be a result of your perception as compared to your old mattress. I’d generally recommend a little more than 10 days for testing this out, if possible.
[quote]My current layering combination is (top to bottom) 2" extra soft (55 kg/m^3), 3" medium (75 kg/m^3), 3" soft (65 kg/m^3), and 3" firm (90 kg/m^3).
I’m debating which of the following configurations I should try next:
Option 1: ES, S, M, F on both sides (this is the configuration used to markets the mattress)[/quote]
This will allow you shoulder to sink in a bit more than in your current configuration, but also will allow your hips to sink in a bit more as well. At your BMI, while counterintuitive, this configuration can actually “feel firmer” to some people in their hip region, as you will sink in a bit more through these softer layers when “meeting” the medium layer, and this extra sinking is described by some people as “extra pushback” along their waist and ribs and when they hit the firmness of the medium layer. It might not be as comfortable when sleeping prone, however.
Similar to my comments on Option 1, but with a more discernible transition from the two plush layers to the firm layer.
This layering would result in your hips sinking in less than your current configuration, but may not be as comfortable on your shoulder. I wouldn’t have concerns about the plush layer by placing it on the bottom.
I would be concerned with the left side and the lower level of deep support for your BMI. The right side configuration would be the “firmest”, and might be the most appropriate if you spent most of your time sleeping upon your stomach, but this might not agree with your shoulder comfort.
Regarding your comments about your shoulder, make sure to analyze your pillow and make sure that it is providing adequate support to help you maintain a more “neutral” alignment. Sometimes shoulder issues when trying out a new mattress can be pillow related.
I can’t tell which configuration might be “the best option” for you, but instead draw comparisons to what you’re current sleeping upon and how you “might” react to these changes. Ideally, I’d day to try your current configuration a bit longer it you can. Besides the configurations you’ve come up with, which are quite good across the spectrum, you may wish to phone Dormio and see if they have any takes on what you’re considering, as they are the most knowledgeable about their own componentry.
Zoning can introduce even more complexity to your layering combinations, and I would consider that a last resort if you’re unable to find anything that comfortable accommodates both your shoulder and hips sinking in. It is true that zoning systems can also be very useful and worth considering for people who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here. Also in post #2 here and post #7 here (latex monozone unique properties).
The last few days (even before my last post) I’ve been making an effort when reading etc. to spend more time on the left side of the bed and am noticing less difference between the “feel” on both sides.
Your point about “learned alignment” is well-taken. I did not noticeably sink in at all on my old mattress, it’s definitely a sensation I need to get used to so I will take another week or so with my current configuration before making any changes. I will also give my pillows some consideration. (That could be it’s own interesting adventure as local pillow options are pretty much limited to Walmart. Fortunately, pillows aren’t nearly as costly as a mattress so an online purchase isn’t as risky.)
I do spend the majority of my actual sleeping time on my stomach, so I’m learning towards trying Option 4 first if I do decide to switch up the layers. (Of the options listed, it is the only one that, if the right side works out, would require a comfort exchange of the two S pieces for two F pieces so that both sides of the bed would have the same configuration.)
1st … the shoulder issue appears to have been pillow related. I’ve been using a body pillow that’s thinner than my regular pillow since my last post and have not had any shoulder issues in days. Thanks Phoenix for bringing pillows to my attention!
As a longer term solution, I have ordered some Nature’s Embrace latex pillows recommended for stomach sleepers, they should be in early this week.
2nd … I switched up my layers today … was easier this time around, but still a workout! Went with ES, M, F, S on both sides. The difference is quite noticeable, but in a good way … it feels firmer but also more comfortable. We’ll see how things go after sleeping on it for a few nights.
One strange thing though. After unzipping the cover and folding back the full ES layer, I was surprised to see that the medium layer on the side I tend to sleep on was about an inch lower than the other side. It didn’t spring back on it’s own once the ES layer was removed either, I had to shake it. (Wondering if this might be why that side felt like it had softened up more. Also wondering why that might have happened. I did take a photo and will follow up with Dormio.)
I’m happy that you’ve made some progress on the pillow front and have found a more comfortable solution for your neck/shoulder for now. Sometimes it is the simplest things that make the largest differences.
I hope the new layering configuration works out well for you. That is one of the benefits (and for some people, the complication) of having a system where you can rearrange layers to achieve various levels of comfort.
Regarding you noticing the one layer of latex layer appearing to be a bit “lower” than the others, this would most likely be it “hanging up” where it meets in the middle seem with the other layers of latex. Latex is quite “sticky” (as I know you’ve discovered) and when compressed sometimes the layers toward the center of the mattress when the force is released off of them will “catch” where they meet and one layer may not fully “expand” in a certain area. This won’t be felt when you apply weight to the product in that area, as this would be a quite weak “sticky point” and all of the layers would contour quite well under your body.
It’s only been 5 nights, but I’m loving the new configuration of ES M F S so far! I haven’t slept this well in ages!
(Laura from Dormio has indicated the dip from before was likely because the old configuration was too soft for me. She also confirmed that there should not be any issues with having the S layers on the bottom.)
Also loving my Nature’s Embrace low-loft, organic dunlop soap-shaped pillows … they are awesome when I stomach sleep (which is the majority of the time), but are also just fine when I shift to my side. They are also a good size at 28" by 18" by about 4". Compared to other 100% natural latex pillows I found online, they were quite reasonably priced at $80 CAD each (regularly $90) through Good Planet. (Other vendors sell them in other sizes and price points.)
Looks like my latex mattress adventure is going to have a very happy ending … thanks again for all your help Phoenix!
Thank you for your update. While just a short time, I am excited for your success and comfort with the “improved” mattress configuration and appropriate pillow. It’s always interesting “watching” forum members go through their “learning process” as you did: addressing the shoulder issue with the pillow, then rearranging layers to provide better support for while sleeping upon your stomach.
After a few weeks sleeping on the ES M F S configuration, things started feeling a bit too soft in my hip/pelvic region. So I switched up one side to ES F M S and kept the other as it was. The new configuration was too firm for my upper body, so I started sleeping diagonally across the bed with my upper half on the ES M F S side and lower half on the ES F M S side.
This was a great short term compromise, but with my comfort exchange window rapidly shrinkng, I made the decision to trade in my soft layer for a seond firm layer. The new firm layer arrived the other day and so now both sides are set up as ES M F F.
This seems like it will work out well as I seem to be getting the extra support my lower half needs wihtout impacting the comfort of my upper half.
The comfort exchange process through Dormio has gone smoothly so far. It took about 2 weeks for the new layer to arrive. I had to pay the shipping (both ways) as well as a security deposit that will be refunded once my soft layers are received back at Dormio.
Thanks again for another update. Deferring toward the slightly firmer deep arrangement would make most sleep ergonomic researchers happy. It may feel a bit “hard” when you first go through that combination, but hopefully you’ll adjust in short order.
And I’m happy that Dormio has been assistive through your exchange process!
