Avocado mattress? ... & Nest Bedding options

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
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Hi Phoenix - I’m hoping to get some expert help with an issue we’ve been having with our Nest Hybrid Latex mattress (I tried posting a new topic for this, but couldn’t find a place to do so). We ordered a Queen and a Full Hybrid Latex back in May of this year (the former version…not the current one). For both mattresses, we order the Medium one - which was supposed to come with a 28ILD Natural Talalay 3" latex insert.

While our Queen bed came with the proper 28ILD Natural Talalay latex insert (first two photos attached - showing “Latex International” manufacturer stamp and 28ILD label), our Full mattress came with a 32ILD latex insert - with only “32” written in one corner. This proved to be too firm, so we requested the proper 28ILD latex insert be sent instead. Nest Bedding did send out a replacement insert, but the replacement insert we received has no tag/marking information - except for “28” written in one corner. Even with this replacement insert, the Full mattress is still considerable firmer than our Queen mattress. We know it takes a while for latex to break in, but our Queen latex mattress has been soft, yet supportive from Day 1. The Full mattress is so firm that guests have complained about it, and we’ve tried sleeping on it, but we forced off it after a couple of nights due to back pain.

I’ve attached photos of our current Full latex insert (last four photos). We have the following questions, and are hoping to get some expert feedback on this (Phoenix, Ken from Arizona Premium Mattress, etc.):

  1. From the photos, is our Full latex insert actually Talalay latex (it feels more like Dunlop, as it gets firmer when compressed, which isn’t the case with our Queen Talalay insert)?

  2. If the Full latex insert is Talalay, is it Natural Talalay - or blended Talalay? We paid more for the Organic Hybrid Latex mattress model, specifically to get the Natural Talalay version. Do the lack of a proper tag/markings mean we received a lower-grade Talalay latex insert?

  3. And if the Full latex insert is Talalay, why are the latex insert markings/labels so drastically different between the Full one and the Queen one? Again, with the Queen mattress, we can see that it’s made from Latex International (now Talalay Global), and it shows the 28ILD breakdown with a tag. With the Full mattress, there aren’t any markings, hardly a tag, and simply “28” written in one corner.

I’m hoping to use the expert feedback here to follow up with Nest Bedding. This, unfortunately, is the fourth issue we’ve had with our original order (boxes damaged during delivery, torn mattress cover on our Queen mattress, wrong 32ILD insert sent with our Full mattress, and and now a stiff/overly firm Full replacement insert). While Nest has been helpful thus far, we were informed yesterday that our current Full 28ILD insert is correct, and there’s nothing else that can be done. Again, we’re hoping to get a second opinion (or two) before circling back with them, as we’re not happy with paying significant money for a second mattress that isn’t working like our Queen mattress.

Thank you!






62

Hi NestHaven,

My name is Todd Leslie and I am helping to lead the customer service effort at Nest Bedding. Your post was just brought to my attention by our CEO and I would love to assist. I have tried to find your order so that I could reach out directly but haven’t had much luck. Would you be willing to write to me directly at … Todd (at) nestbedding (dot) com so that I can assist you in finding a latex layer that is better for your comfort needs?

Thank you sincerely for your consideration and for being a valued member of the Nest Bedding family.

Todd Leslie

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Thank you for the follow-up, Todd. I’ve sent you an email directly.

Much appreciated,
NestHaven

64

Hi NestHaven.

I am sorry that your guest bed is not meeting with your comfort expectations and that it is not matching your current mattress but I am very glad to see that Nest is taking good care of you. It always brings a smile on my face to see that even without being prompted they are responding almost in real time and monitor many possible channels of communication to service and assist their customers. Thanks, Nest Bedding!

The photos you posted clearly show that both your full bed and the queen bed use Talalay latex from Talalay Global/Latex International (see photo breakdown below) Depending on the ILD both Dunlop and Talalay latex will get firmer with compression but it is less noticeable for softer layers and how much will compress would also depend on the layer under as all layers work together and not sequentially.

The labels and markings inside your cover are for not to inform consumers … any type of labeling that’s typically inside the cover is for internal purposes only to keep track of different stages and specs needed in the Manufacturing process and in most cases to clearly understand what they mean you would need to have some inside knowledge. For example on the photo showing your Queen bed sticker … the SMT 6028 is a Talalay Global/Latex International part number identification and the M 28 indicates that it has been classified as a 28 ILD rating. The sticker includes a code that prints out at the test station when they test each of the 6" cores wether is it queen size or an XL size (including the date of the testing and the time. On the right-hand side of the sticker, you can read the test results. Different materials including latex have a variance across the surface of the 6" core so in one place it may be let’s say 28 ILD … and in another part of the core it may be 26 or 30. The ILD rating is usually an average of the range across the surface. Blended Talalay has less variance (=/-2 or so) than Dunlop which may vary by more (+/-4 or so). 100% natural Talalay can have a larger variance than blended Talalay.

TG tests each core in 9 locations across the surface and when all numbers are averaged they should fall within a specified softness/firmness range. While the specified rating is let’s say … 28 ILD you can an average anywhere between 26 and 30 ILD. A 4 ILD difference would be noticeable in the 3" on a top layer of a mattress and it is very possible that you’ve got a 3" top layer of your guest mattress rated “28 ILD” that is, in fact, closer to a 30 ILD vs your current mattress testing ILD that show it closer to a 26 ILD. This difference is quite significant and it would and very noticeable… Next picture is the side of a core of a queen mold made of cast aluminum with pins in it. The identification on the side surface shows a Queen Monoblock mold with its internal branding name.

Moving to the pictures of the full mattress 3" layer. The sticker with the barcode is also from TG/LI, but it is the bottom half of the same type of label that you posted for the queen bed above. Usually, the sticker is placed on the side surface of a 6" core and when the slab is cut into half to get two 3" layers… the layers will be left with either the bottom or the top half of the tag. Top shows the ILD testing points, bottom the identification barcode) Then the layers that in the cutting process lose the top part of the sticker with ILDs will be clearly labeled manually with a permanent marker to show the target ILD number of the layer. The close-up of the images show a rounder cellular structure of the rubber which is more uniform, homogenous top to bottom, and less dense for Talalay. If this was Dunlop would have a less consistent cell structure (with a wider variety of cell size, shape) and was the side of the mold the raw/contact surface with the mold walls would have been a smooth almost glossy surface looks different … (The same goes for the continuous pour Dunlop that uses a carousel belt) as the cell structure of the latex in the manufacturing process is interacting with the mold and creates a different contact surface and finish.) If this surface is cut it will look a little flaky and the bubbles less uniform and different sizes)

The next picture shows 607 - 03 that is the mold identification number which is a way for them to keep track of the assets. When they test the product and they find it to be non-compliant for ILD they can also identify what mold came out of and they use this for traceability if they try to identify any type of quality issues. Again If you look on the side of it you can see that the surface is smoother and not glossy which is a characteristic of the Talalay process.

I am not able to tell from the photos you sent if it is natural or blended (There is no organic Talalay) but I have absolutely no reason to doubt that you’ve been sent lower-grade layer intentionally…you are dealing with a Trusted Member & Manufacturer which means that I think very highly of them and that I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency, and who have a great reputation in the industry. As you’ve already experienced Nest Bedding is very responsive and never shy away to assume responsibility for any shortcomings on the rare occasions when this might happen.

Phoenix

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Thank you for the detailed follow-up and expertise feedback, as always, Phoenix. That’s exactly the information that we were looking for. Good to know that we, indeed, have Talalay latex in both mattresses. Nest Bedding confirmed the same information to us as you indicated in your response.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with this assessment - “it is very possible that you’ve got a 3” top layer of your guest mattress rated ‘28 ILD’ that is, in fact, closer to a 30 ILD vs your current mattress testing ILD that show it closer to a 26 ILD. This difference is quite significant and it would and very noticeable." My sense is that is likely the case. It’s too bad - as the 26 ILD is a touch too soft on the back (though great for shoulders), and the 30 ILD is too firm for the shoulders (though great on the back). It seems that a true 28 ILD would be the sweet spot for us, but we know that it’s tough to get the ILD exactly spot-on, and that’s not Nest Bedding’s fault (no company could guarantee that).

I’m assuming, Phoenix, that we wouldn’t have any better luck with Dunlop latex? My sense there is that we’d have a whole other layer of comfort-level adjustments, as Dunlop tends to be more dense. While we might get better back support, we’d then trade in the shoulder pressure relief. Finding the right balance for softness for our shoulders, while getting enough firmness for our backs, is proving to be tricky.

Then again, we’ve been sleeping on our Queen mattress directly on the 26-28 ILD latex insert while our mattress cover is being repaired/replaced by Nest Bedding. It looks like Nest is going to send us a completely new mattress - minus the latex insert (which we’ll swap out with our current one) - so perhaps having the cover back on the latex will firm it up just enough to give us the proper balance we’re looking for. Maybe sleeping directly on the latex is making it seem softer than it actually is without the cover?

And on that note, Nest Bedding has been very consistent with their customer service, addressing each issue we’ve encountered promptly and thoroughly. While we wish the issues hadn’t occurred in the first place, we do understand that they are a smaller company - and have manufacturers/suppliers to deal with. Either way, Nest Bedding has resolved each issue promptly, and we appreciate their efforts and overall customer support.

Thanks again, too, Phoenix for the wealth of support and information on this site!

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Hi NestHaven.

Glad to be of assistance! :slight_smile:

Thank you for your update. Yes, fine-tuning sometimes involves a bit of trial and error and it Is not so straightforward but I am glad that Nest Bedding is by your side and taking good care of you. One couldn’t have asked for more from any other company and they certainly went above and beyond (and still do) ensuring that you have the layering combination for that best fits your needs… I also agree that adding back The cover especially if it is slightly taut will also firm up the overall feel but again only you can say if that is firm enough for you.

I hope that the new mattress that Nest bedding is sending will be working out for you. Keep us posted

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

Thank you again for your assistance and feedback. Simply to circle back on this matter, we received the replacement mattress casing for our Queen mattress from Nest Bedding, which included a new cover, and the new cover definitely firmed up the mattress just enough. It’s slightly firmer, likely due to having to break in the new innersprings that came with the replacement casing, but we actually like the firmness level. The slightly lower ILD with our Queen mattress - more in the 26-28 range - suits us nicely.

Our Full mattress remains a bit firmer - again, likely due to the ILD perhaps being in the higher 29-30 range (closer to Firm rather than a true Medium). We’re planning on circling back with Nest Bedding to see if that latex pad can be adjusted/replaced.

Simply curious, while we understand that Talalay latex tends to be more consistent from top to bottom as compared to Dunlop, would the fact that we’re getting the bottom 3" portion of a cut 6" Talalay latex core also be contributing to the additional firmness?

Ideally, we’d like to go with a the top 3" portion of a cut 6" Talalay latex core - since that would not only show the ILD breakdown label (we’d want something in the similar 26-28 range as our Queen), but it might be less firm given that it’s the top half of the core. Does that sound about right?

We’re not sure if this is possible to do, so we wanted to get your thoughts on this, while checking with Nest Bedding as well. Thank you…

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Hi NestHeaven,

Thank you for your update. While just a short time, I am excited for your success and comfort with the “improved” mattress configuration.

Talalay latex tends to be quite consistent top to bottom, so if you had a layer slit from the top or bottom of the core it wouldn’t tend to feel too different, regardless of orientation. The Talalay process is creating vacuum to disperse the liquid latex rubber throughout the mold. which yields a more Latex efficient, consistent, rounder, foam cell structure and a foam that is less dense/less heavy, airier, more homogeneous top to bottom.

It is very unlikely that you’d feel the difference in firmness/softens of top 3" vs the bottom 3" cut from the same slab. The only reason you may wish to have the top part of the slab is that you know for sure that your layer falls within a target ILD range for the medium option that you are after. This is not something that most companies would accommodate and I am not sure if Nest would do this for you, but from my many years of experience with them they are very consumer-centric and it would not surprise me if they would go this extra mile.

Phoenix

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Much appreciated, Phoenix, as always. That information is very helpful.

We’ve already heard back from Nest Bedding, and they are going to see what they can do. Again, we can’t praise Nest enough for their outstanding customer service. While there were a few bumps with our original order, they have come through - and then some - each step of the way.

After going through many challenging & painful mattress experiences with 9 other mattress brands over the past year and a half (before finding this site), we are certainly grateful to have found Nest Bedding through TMU. It’s such a relief to be getting restful sleep again. Their Hybrid Latex is hitting the sweet spot for us nicely, and we do recommend it. Definitely sold when it comes to latex, too - which we discovered through researching this site.

Many thanks to you, Phoenix - and Nest Bedding as well!

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Hi NestHaven,

You’re very welcome … and thanks for the kind comments … I appreciate it. :slight_smile:
TMU is very proud to have Nest Bedding among its members. Above all, I am certainly glad that your challenging and painful mattresses experiences came to an end and that your Nest mattress is providing you with restful sleep. After your experience with 9 mattresses within one year and all the research you did, I am sure that you could teach many of the major brand’s sale reps a thing or two. :wink:

Phoenix

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Thank you as well, Phoenix. I feel like we know WAY more about mattresses than we ever intended to know. On the flip side, though, purchasing a mattress next time (hopefully in about 10+ years) should be a relatively quick & smooth process. Latex it is from here on out… :slight_smile:

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Hi Phoenix,

A follow-up inquiry for you when you have a moment, please. Thank you!

Circling back on the issue we were having with our Nest Bedding Hybrid Latex mattress - pertaining to the mattress cover tear. Originally, we wanted simply to have the torn mattress cover replaced, not the entire mattress. We sent the cover back for replacement, but the manufacturer lost our cover, so a new mattress encasement was sent (entire mattress, incl. springs, without the latex insert). We kept our existing Talalay latex insert because we had already broken it in over 3 months, and didn’t want to have to go through another adjustment period.

While we appreciated Nest’s effort in replacing the mattress encasement, we were concerned about our replacement mattress being too firm. Nest informed us that “springs do not need breaking in - only the latex insert needs breaking in - and since you’re not replacing the latex, the mattress should feel like your existing one once replaced.” We hesitantly took their word for it. When we got the new mattress encasement in, our mattress was a bit firmer, but we chalked that up merely to being new, hoping that would wear off after a few days.

Unfortunately, 30 days in since we received the replacement encasement, our mattress is a good 20-30% firmer that the one that was replaced. It’s so firm that my partner is no longer able to sleep on her side anymore, and is constantly tossing and turning throughout the night. She is also now experiencing shoulder pain that wasn’t there before. And both of our lower backs have been aching/sore the past few weeks.

Based on that, I wanted to check with you on the following:

  1. Do springs in fact need time to break in? Again, having swapped out our original Talalay latex insert, we were told that our mattress would feel the same. And if it’s not the springs…

  2. What could be accounting for the increased firmness? Would the 1-inch layer of cotton/wool make that significant of a difference?

  3. And in general, what has happened to mattresses overall in the past few years? Before this last year, I could simply walk into a store, pick out a typical mattress (usually your basic spring model), and be fine with it for years. We’ve never been through so many mattress hoops as we have in the past year or so. Getting a decent-night’s rest was never such a hassle like it’s been now. Again, simply curious if something changed throughout the industry, as we’ve been challenged like never before to find simply a decent mattress.

Thank you as always for your feedback!

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Hi NestHaven.

Thanks for your followup.

NestBededing is correct, spring units do not have a break-in period, The materials and design of springs are completely different than for foam and a spring system “break-in” period is not applicable. Generally, springs do not lose height, compress, or soften with use.

All mattresses will soften slightly with use, even latex and the covering and the non-woven fabric wrapping the springs, although the amount is insignificant and will also vary based upon materials being used, the cover stretches and loosens a little and the materials settle. With a latex/spring bed most adjustment you’d tend to notice will come from the fabric covering of your mattress. If the quilting pattern and materials within the encasement are the same then the cotton-wool layer should not make a difference. You can verify if the cover/encasement is too taught by opening the cover to see if this is the main contributor. If it does not make much difference and as you already eliminated the latex as a possibility then the difference in firmness appears to be coming from the coil system used in the mattress. I suggest as usual that you contact Nest to check if that is the case.

Phoenix

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Thank you for the follow-up, Phoenix. We are working with Nest Bedding to handle this issue. We appreciate your feedback as well.

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Hi NestHaven

Great to hear that you are working closely with NestBeddig … as with all of the Trusted Members of the site I have no doubt that they’ll do their best to assist you. I’m looking forward to any ongoing updates you have the chance to share.

Phoenix

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New to the forum here, and came across this posting on the Avocado. We purchased one recently without a pillow top and have come to the conclusion that it is not for us. I’ve been waking up with soreness in the back and around the lower rib area. They’ve been very helpful at Avocado and we’ve looked to try a couple of things. But alas, we’re at the return stage.

This sets up a new search for a mattress and I was hoping that some help could be provided by some of the experts on this forum. I’m looking at Leesa, Nectar, or Dreamcloud after some dizzying reading of reviews and opinions. My BMI is 26 and change and my wife’s is lower. I’m very much a combo sleeper (primarily back and stomach) and would love to get opinions and educated feedback.

Any help would be very much appreciated!

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Hi ignacio001.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Sorry to hear that your Avocado mattress is not a good fit for your needs. Some good local testing can give a better sense of the many different types of materials and components that are used in mattresses and some reference points about the types of mattresses ( see this article) and general firmness levels you tend to prefer which can help you narrow down your choices regardless of whether you end up purchasing locally or online.

Typically, reviews or other people’s experiences in general, won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here ), and I’d recommend to avoid considering them as a reliable indicator of the appropriateness of any particular product for your needs. You can always do a Forum Search here to find any comments and discussions about any of the beds you mentioned.

I’m not sure what you’ve read since you found the site but just in case you haven’t read it yet … the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones and learn just enough to recognize a product using better quality materials or a retailer that is knowledgeable and honest so that you may trust the information you’re presented.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).

While again nobody can speak to how any specific mattress will “feel” for someone else or whether it will be a good “match” in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances and you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress … outside of PPP (which is the most important part of “value”), the next most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can’t see or “feel” and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new so I would always make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

Once you’ve had the chance to read through the information provided and have more specific questions then I or any of the Expert members of the site would be happy to assist you.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

Simply to close the loop on this, Nest Bedding was very helpful in getting our issue resolved. While we tried to get the comfort of our mattresses right, we simply couldn’t get there as lightweight combo (side/back) sleepers. To their credit, Nest Bedding was very accommodating every step of the way in trying to dial in the comfort level that we were hoping to achieve, and even refunded us back for the mattresses when we couldn’t get situated with them. We can certainly see why they are considered a Trusted Member on this site.

For what it’s worth, we tried the Avocado mattress as well afterward, but found that to be excessively firm - even with the pillowtop option. The Dunlop latex was simply too hard, even after giving it weeks to try to break in, and the combizone coils were not a good fit for us as lightweight sleepers. It felt like we sleeping on a bent board, as the middle coil zone was just too firm & seemed to bow our backs. We never really could get comfortable with it. So, our search continues.

We did get a chance to try Nest Bedding’s new Natural Hybrid Latex (my brother has the mattress). We think Nest might have hit the nail on the head with that mattress. Much more pressure relief & comfort than what we were finding with the latex/wool combination. It felt like the traditional mattresses we grew up with - only better. The only thing we noticed was that it did sleep a little warm, but not to the point of making us sweat or being too uncomfortable. However, a cool/phase-changing pad or cover should likely alleviate that.

We do want to say hats off to Nest Bedding for their outstanding customer service, as well as their attention to detail. We get the sense that they truly care about their products and customer satisfaction - and that they listen to customer feedback. When we ordered our previous mattresses from Nest Bedding, they arrived in packaging that was a bit thin, so that the boxes were damaged when they arrived. When my brother received his new mattress, their packaging had changed - and was much stronger and solid. Also, it seems that Nest Bedding has addressed the issues that some of us lightweight sleepers were having with latex/wool mattresses (not just with them, but with other brands as well). Again, the new Natural Hybrid Latex version that they have seems to hit the sweet spot for lightweight folks like us - providing a really nice balance between pressure relief (for side sleeping) and still plenty of support (for back sleeping). Kudos, indeed.

So, we just wanted to share our experience and close out this particular leg of our mattress journey. Thank you again for the wealth of information and resources on this site. It’s truly invaluable!

79

Hi NestHaven,

Thanks for your kind words and for taking the time to “close the loop” on your Nest Bedding mattress purchase and add commentaries of your experience with the company. I’m excited that the mattress is working out so well for you … I thought I had an “extreme déjà vu” seeing your post…followed by relief :slight_smile: It is always nice when members return here to close the circle so that others experiencing similar issues can have some good pointers to look into. Depending on one’s level of tolerance, the mattress fine-tuning process can be as lengthy as finding a suitable mattress and I am glad that Nest Bedding worked so closely with you and I hope you’ll be experiencing a Nest Heaven sleep for many years to come.

Phoenix

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Hi NestHaven and Phoenix,

I’m also very interested in the latex hybrid by Nestbedding. After reading everything I could I’ve gathered that they have changed the specs of the latex hybrid several times. Their website currently advertises and I confirmed with a customer service representative that they’ve switched back to Dunlop latex and that they completely got rid of the coil zoning except for a difference in the gauge of the coils around the perimeter of the mattress. I’m not sure if they were using memory foam in the earlier models but now they’ve included two layers of mf including the base layer below the springs. It would be interesting to know what they were using before. And finally, their coil count in the queen is 660 and 560 in the full and I believe I read somewhere that they used to be higher than that (perhaps one of you can help me here).

I’m concerned that the present construction is inferior to the prior ones based on the switch from talalay (which I know tends to be pricier) to Dunlop, the total removal of coil zoning except for perimeter zoning, the possible inclusion of cheap material for short term satisfaction at the expense of long term durability and the possible reduction in coil count.

I’m curious if you were aware of these changes and if so what your and Phoenix’s thoughts are regarding them. They seem like reductions in quality so it would also be good to know how much they were selling for before. If they aren’t lesser quality mattresses then I’m very interested in understanding the logic that justifies these changes.

Lastly, I know it’s only been a month since this post, NestHaven, but I’m curious if you’re still happy with the new latex hybrid.

Thank you in advance for your time,
John