Looking for 3rd mattress in 3 years...

Dear Phoenix,

I just stumbled upon your site a couple days ago and have not been able to keep from reading posts or articles on your site every time I am on the computer. I am blown away by your industry knowledge and commitment to thoroughly responding to your members’ posts. I wish I had found The Mattress Underground a couple years ago before my wife and I purchased our first Cal king mattress together! Needless to say, we have had nothing but problems with our big-brand innerspring mattresses purchased from a major chain mattress retailer here in the Los Angeles area.

Our first mattress was a Aireloom “Periwinkle” hybrid mattress with bamboo ticking, a medium-firm pillow top mattress from Sit n Sleep. After some negotiating, we paid about $1600 for the set, even though the store price was $2400. So, I felt we got a great deal and we were very happy with the feel of our mattress…for a few months. We soon noticed the typical king bed wear pattern - we could feel a very large hump developing down the middle of our bed (we both had only slept on queen-size beds before this). We then started noticing some significant sagging in the hip area of the mattress after about a year and called Sit n Sleep for an inspection. The depression was only 1-1/4". I knew at the rate we were going, it would not be long before we hit the 1-1/2" mark, and called for a second inspection a few months later. We had to pay $60 for the inspection, but I was willing to do anything to get rid of this mattress, so an extra $60 did not seem like a big deal. This time it did hit the mark, and a couple weeks later we received our letter in the mail from Sit n Sleep to come in and pick out another mattress, and they credited us for the value of our decrepit Periwinkle.

After doing some of my own (obviously poor) research at some other Sit n Sleep locations, pouring through some other mattress advice websites, and even visiting a different mattress store while on a business trip to Denver, I was CONVINCED we needed a Simmons Beautyrest Black mattress, especially because the “Transflection” technology would make sure our mattress was already broken-in when we got it. Their salespeople universally hailed this as one of their best mattresses. Boy, was I a sucker.

I shelled out an additional $1,200 for a Beautyrest Black “Verona” set (also known as the “Mariella” on the old beautyrestblack.com site), and thought we got an even better deal after some even tougher negotiating this time at about $2600 for a mattress set that sold in their store for $3700 (and at some on-line mattress discount sites as well). Fewer than 10 months later, “Transflection” is BS, the mattress is as bad as or worse than our Aireloom was, I sleep really hot on it, we have another hump running down the middle of our bed, as well as deep, visible depressions in the hip area, and we now have scheduled another mattress inspection to rid ourselves of this disappointment, as well.
Having been through the process already, I am confident our mattress will fail the next inspection and we will soon be replacing it. Unfortunately, we will be at the mercy of the selection of mattresses at Sit n Sleep, as they are in to us for $2600.

My wife and I will go back to Sit n Sleep armed with our new knowledge from The Mattress Underground and try some different beds…If I could get them to write me a check for $2600, I would race over to Flexus, SelectaBed, LatexPedic, or Foam Sweet Foam. Seeing as getting a refund is highly unlikely, we will try to find a few suitable options at Sit n Sleep, and hopefully you will have a recommendation for us when we post them (along with our personal stats and sleep preferences) for you!

Thank you for such a great resource!

Hi LAsleeper,

That’s quite a “mattress” story and unfortunately you are not alone. Even though I see these kind of experiences all the time, it still somewhat baffles (and saddens) me that mattress that are sold as such “high quality” and at such high prices can include materials that have such poor quality and durability.

Ill be happy to do whatever I can to help you with your somewhat “limited” replacement options if that is the direction you end up going and they approve the replacement. Let me know what happens when you go there and any other information that may be helpful in making your next choice as good as it can be.


There is so much more to the story in my previous post that I haven’t even mentioned!

Anyway, I popped in to Sit n Sleep yesterday during lunchtime to see some of their latest offerings. I feel so much more informed about mattresses now, after reading through your site. For instance, I now check the law tag on every mattress I test (and somewhat like). I asked one of the salespeople to show me some of their latex mattresses. There was an Aireloom I liked, but it only had about 30% latex - the rest was some kind of support polyfoam, and it was still very expensive. So, I asked to see one of their more affordable latex bed brand(s) and tried their Sherwood Evosleep - I checked the law tag - it had only 2% latex. I was/am appalled.

I’m still not ready to give you any specific mattresses to comment on yet, but, at least in my mind, I am exploring ALL my possible options.

Phoenix, I’ve been learning more and more about latex, thanks to you. The idea of latex seems great to me because of its durability and it is a natural product. However, I sleep hot but love the feel of memory foam and find latex beds, in general, to be very bouncy. So, my question is, how might I be able to find or order a mattress with both Celsion and Nuform in the top layers? I believe that a mattress with these products from LI could be great for my preferences.

After reading a little more today on your forums, I guess I would be looking for Talalay GL and not NuForm…

Hi LAsleeper,

Yes … the NuForm and Celsion have been replaced with the Talalay GL fast and slow response versions. Both of them include the phase change material that allows it to sleep cooler.

At this point … the only place I know of that it can be tested is in the new Pure Latex Bliss Hybrid models which are here. If you input your zip code here you will get a list of any outlets near you that carry them and a call will confirm if they have them yet (or plan to carry them).

The interesting part is that the law tags are listed by weight rather than thickness and because latex is heavier than other materials … the 30% would be overstating the latex content measured by layer thickness.

All of an inch of latex. I guess that qualifies to be called a latex mattress … NOT!

I think that there will be more options that use the new materials from LI in the fairly near future but another possibility (which I personally like) is the feel of latex memory foam combinations in the comfort layers. With something like an inch or two of latex and a couple of inches of memory foam over latex (or a different support layer) you have the surface breathability of latex with some of the slow response of memory foam below it. Others may prefer a thinner layer of memory foam over latex. All of these are examples of mixed layers that can be “perfect” for some people (two different materials that “modify” each other).

An example of combinations like this that are available to test are the Simmons NXG here (although I wouldn’t consider buying it at those prices) or something like this (which I would definitely buy at those prices if I lived in this area of Canada).


Hi there guys -

First and Foremost, I’ve been scouring your website, and all I can say is WOW. VERY THANKFUL!!! You’ve done an incredible job at helping to arm the consumer with outstanding knowledge in the mattress realm.

Secondly, after doing some forum searching, I’ve come to this thread (rather than starting a new one) to ask some questions.

A few details -

6’ 1", 270 lbs.
HOT sleeper.
Recent back pain.
Live in Denver, CO

I’ve gone my entire life on cheap mattresses, and recently started noticing that my back pain is persistent when I wake up. After checking around, I’ve realized that I’m basically laying on the worst possible combination of bed materials known to man.

Long story short, I’ve been researching, then testing, various mattresses here in the Denver area. Urban Mattress has been fantastic, and I’ve finally found a bed that I think will work for years to come.

It’s the new (within the last month or two) Sherwood Bio-Temp series. Evosleep (hence the reason I’m posting here), Luxury Firm queen size. The law tag states 54% latex, 44% poly foam.
After a quick email to Sherwood, this is the response I was given in regards to the mattress materials:

"Hello Cory

I hope this information is helpful: it can be a little “Dry” as specifications can be … but I will add some of the Raw Materials functionality into the breakdown

The Bio-Temp series of Mattresses are designed with 2 objectives in mind … Temperature Control & Incredible Comfort with varying measure of Support (by model)

First: is to create a “thermo Neutral” sleep environment through the use of a product called “Celsion” (Celsion, is Talalay Latex with a natural phase change material added to it) This Natural Latex Layer actually absorbs heat energy and then release it… You may have noticed the panel ticking? It is treated with “Outlast” ? Outlast is also a Phase Change material that acts much like the “Celsion” Latex layer in the fact that it regulates the surface temperature of the bed … the combined use of both of these materials guarantees you a well regulated Sleep environment with consistent temperature

Second: (Support & Comfort)… Sherwood Bedding uses only Certi – Pur US certified Soy based Polyurethane foams, that are carefully combined with the Talalay Latex Layers & Celsion Latex to yield the Perfect Sleep Surface in terms of Firmness & Support …

Retreat Series of Bio- Temp Mattresses (luxury Firm & Luxury Plush Euro Tops) Material breakdown

Heavy Weight Lycra / “Outlast” treated Panel ticking
Layers of Hyper-Soft & or Super Soft Quilt Foams (depending on the models firmness requirement)
Layer of “Celsion” Talalay Latex
Layer of Talalay Latex
Layer or Layers of Soy Based Upholstery foam (support layer) … the type varies depending on the firmness requirement
3" Talalay Latex Core w edge firmness
2 layers of 3.5" Engineered foam layers (air flow and deep core support)
Chenille Border w bomber Jacket handles
20 Year warranty
Made in America

If you have any further questions … please e mail me

Warm Regards"

Now, I’ve been reading through this thread in particular because the other poster seemed to be looking at a very similar evosleep, but after looking at the two, the one that I’M looking at appears to be a different bed entirely.

My main goals in life are to sleep cooler, have a bed that lasts 10 years or so, and get some much needed support. After trying out about 15 different store models (in the stores of course), this particular bed feels like everything I need.

Could you let me know how it looks pheonix? Decent materials?

Thanks so much


Hi broncomania,

This is the kind of responsiveness I like to see with manufacturers … and as you know I already think highly of Urban Mattress who have always gone out of their way to provide the type of more detailed information that the members of this forum ask for (and are usually much more specific and important than most consumers even know to ask or realize).

The materials in your mattress look like good quality to me and their explanations of them are good and also touch on the reasons why they are included. The only “gaps” that I would like to know are as follows …

Normally thinner layers of quilt foams are not that big an issue but if they are 2" or thicker then I would want to know the density and make sure it was in a higher range. Thinner is better in foam quilting layers IMO (their softening will have less affect on changing the overall performance and feel of the mattress)

This is polyfoam with some of the petrochemical polyols replaced with plant oils (typically 20% or less). Like all polyfoam layers … I would want to know the thickness and density of this material because this will have an effect on the durability of the mattress. It will likely vary with each model.

This is also polyfoam that has been “engineered” (things like cutouts or zoning to improve the support qualities of the mattress) and I would also want to know the density of the polyfoam used here.

These polyfoam densities (and firmness levels) would likely change with the different models so they would need to know which model you had (or were considering) purchasing.

It seems clear to me though that they are focused on providing good information to their retailers and consumers which is the way things should be thoughout the industry.

The Celsion and Outlast will certainly make a difference in temperature control and they are both effective materials for this (and can help to compensate for the increased temperatures that can come from heavier weights sinking in more deeply into foam materials).

Of course none of the specs apply specifically to the suitability of the mattress for your needs and preferences (which is about testing) … but it will definitely apply to the durability of the mattress you purchase. While there will be some initial softening as the mattress breaks in (which is common to all polyfoam) … once this is done then higher quality materials will keep their qualities much longer.

Your weight is higher than “average” so all materials will break down sooner than if someone is lighter (and post #2 here has more about the many interacting factors that affect the longevity of a mattress). There is no doubt though that your focus on higher quality materials will give you a mattress that will last and keep it’s properties much longer than alternatives that are either “blind” or use lower quality materials.

It’s great to see consumers that ask some of the more “technical” questions and even better to see retail outlets and manufacturers answer them :slight_smile:


Pheonix!!! YOU ROCK!

I just fired off one more email to Eric at Sherwood, asking (if he’s able) to get me the different densities and thickness of each individual layers.

As to the folks at Urban Mattress - you’re absolutely correct in terms of their willingness to help. Andrew, at the store on Colorado Blvd, provided a VERY low pressure, informative, and fun sales experience. They really love helping our local economy, and actually have beer available from a local brewer :wink: I’d come to him with my different concerns, and he took me step by step through each mattress’ pros/cons. All in all, I was there for about two hours. I was REALLY tempted to go with their Urban Organics line (100% organic natural sheeps wool, latex, and organic cotton), as that particular talalay felt very supportive and cool. But, I do prefer a fairly plush comfort layer, and while I could always add a topper, I’d preferred something that came in one “package” so to speak. It was definitely close, but in the end, the Sherwood line edged out the Organics line. Throughout the process though, every question I could think of was answered. WONDERFUL experience. With the Sherwood (which, consequently, used to be the Dr. Breus line…until they recently dropped him and redesigned a bunch of product, priced it lower, and used some new technologies, according to the sales rep), I found that perfect blend of comfort layer plushness that I enjoy, and enough support underneath. He was even nice enough to go through and look at my side sleeping position for each mattress, giving me (to the best of his abilities) his view of which ones kept me in the most “aligned” position, like you’d mentioned in some of your tutorials. When it was all said and done, the bed I’d found the most comfortable was the one that he said was engineered for the “bigger than average” (yes, I’m a bit of a fatty haha) person, even though it cost less than the plush version of the same line. It’s funny, because when I first walked in, he’d given his endorsement of the bed, and after all of the different trials, it was the one I’d picked.

ANYWHO, I’ll keep you posted with any further details from Sherwood, but I appreciate you taking the time to read through the first reply I’d posted. It relieves me to hear your positive feedback on my choice thus far, and it’s nice to see your objectivity shining through with each post you make. This is exactly why I’ve told EVERY SINGLE PERSON I KNOW to come check out your website, in hopes that they might be enlightened like I have been.

Cheers, and I’ll report back soon enough.

Hi broncomania,

Thanks for the kind words … I appreciate them :slight_smile:

I think that you’re a perfect example of doing enough research to know who is telling you good information and then finding an outlet that knows more than you do and can really help you make your best decisions. As you mention it can turn mattress shopping from an exercise in frustration and confusion into a “happy experience”.

If the whole industry worked that way … there would be a lot more people sleeping better and that had mattresses that lasted a whole lot longer.

Thanks for the feedback!


Well, unfortunately, no reply from Sherwood the second time around. All in all, I’m excited for what we’ve found so far, and am crossing my fingers that this is a wonderful product for years to come! Bed is getting delivered Saturday, so I’ll check in periodically with updates and info!

Thanks again for all of the help!


Hi broncomania,

I’m looking forward to your report once you’ve had the chance to sleep on it for a while.

I hope too that they end up replying to your last set of questions because it would be nice to know for future reference the densities of the polyfoams they used. There is a little more in post #4 in this thread but this is about the Lumina which is a different line with different layering.

It sounds to me as well like you made a good choice by choosing a mattress with less of the softer foam and designed for heavier weights which will help with durability and would also be more suitable for your height/weight.

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:



First impressions -

So incredibly comfortable. The perfect combination of comfort/support. I was bedridden for the last two days (horrible bout with the flu), and had ample time to lay on it haha. In any position, back/side/stomach, it feels like my major pressure points are being relieved. When I wake up in the mornings, I’m usually in the same position that I went to sleep, and with none of the previous pains that I had before. My back has been feeling INCREDIBLE!!!

Obviously, this has been a small sample size, so I’ll check back with more updates as time progresses.

My only complaint at this time is the heat. Granted, I had a terribly high fever for two days, but since then, I’ve noticed that the bed still sleeps hot. As previously mentioned, I’m a HOT sleeper, and this bed is not as cool as I’d hoped it to be. It’s been warm here in Colorado as of late, so that’s also a contributing factor, but I’ll keep you posted on that factor as well.

Anywho, more to come!

Hi broncomania,

Thanks for the great report and feedback :slight_smile:

What type of a mattress protector are you using?

There’s some information in post #2 here that talks about many of the factors that can affect sleeping temperature and some ideas in post #4 here as well.

I’m looking forward to your updates.


Hi there Pheonix -

To be honest, I don’t use a mattress protector. I just have my jersey knit sheets (SUPPOSEDLY cool in the summer haha), and a down comforter that I usually sleep partially under.

Apparently I should check into some different bedding and a protector!

Hi broncomania,

Jersey knit sheets are really nice and stretchy and comfy but they are certainly hotter than other sheets and this alone could be the reason for the heat. Down is also much hotter than say wool or other materials and will create an air layer that can be quite warm (depending on the thickness and fill of the down). I would say that the combination of the two together could create heat issues for many people who had a tendency in that direction.

The importance of a protector would depend on the likelihood of various types of accidents, on the importance of maintaining the warranty on the mattress (any tiny stain voids the warranty), and on the type of cover and the materials in the quilting/ticking of the mattress and any other layers that are over the mattress itself. I chose a waterproof protector because we like to drink a glass of wine and watch a movie in bed sometimes and the “risk” of a spill was worth it to my other half who likes to keep things “new”. If it was just up to me I probable would have chosen something else than what we did (A thin Natura wool protector with a “breathable membrane”). It’s a good product and the price at Costco when they sold them was great but the membrane certainly compromises the breathability of the mattress to some degree and it also compresses and gets “bare” spots. Quite frankly the waterproof membrane and wool combination was probably overkill and the water resistance of just a wool protector like the St Dormeir would have been enough.

I would certainly consider a change of bedding though and if you do go with a protector I would make sure it was breathable and temperature regulating.


Hi broncomania,

I think you should use mattress protector. I also did not use that but my mattress set ruined just because of that. I hope you will take care of your mattress.


I am extremely pleased to write that my wife and I have been sleeping on our SleepEZ Natural 13000 mattress for a little over ten nights now. I would love to say that we have been getting great sleep each night, but our two small children have been sick the past few days and unfortunately, we have been spending quite a bit of time out of our new bed when we should have been blissfully sleeping. We are very happy with our new mattress, however.

I am also extremely pleased to write that we were able to return our defective mattress for a complete refund, rather than an exchange. This was accomplished by the intervention of one of the retailer’s veteran salespeople, who was kind enough to really take interest in my story and “go to bat” for us with his customer service department on our behalf. The whole process was a bit of an ordeal, and when the retailer’s representatives came to our home to pick up our defective Beautyrest Black mattress, it was especially stressful, as they had left the mattress sitting on the floor in the middle of our home for about 30 minutes while they were on the phone with their customer service department getting approval to load up the mattress into their truck. They REALLY were eagerly visually inspecting our mattress very close up.

I came to the decision to buy from Shawn at SleepEZ after quite a bit of research online and driving around the LA area. I visited the following companies to conduct my personal research: Selectabed, Flexus, Foam Sweet Foam, a Savvy Rest retailer, Royal-Pedic (just to feel what a $7,000 bed feels like), a retail chain store called Beds, Etc., and even today I popped in an upscale furniture store that carries OMI and Carpe Diem, to compare the feel of my new SleepEZ mattress to these high-priced brands. After leaving that store, I felt REALLY good about our purchase.

I think that when it really comes down to it, you can’t beat SleepEZ. The numerous reasons to buy from them are listed all throughout this forum. If you are willing to take a bit of a leap of faith (i.e. buy a mattress over the phone or online that you haven’t actually slept on) they really are the way to go…at least that’s how we feel after 10 nights on our 13000.

As far as our mattress protector goes, I found a deal for a mattress protector at Sears.com a couple days ago for the NaturaProtect Deluxe Mattress Protector in CA King size for around $170 including CA tax and free shipping. It seemed like a great way to go, as it has a nice cotton fabric (though not described as sateen, like on many of the other Natura products), a decent amount of wool for cushion and temperature regulation, silver antibacterial protection, it’s washable and yet waterproof, and we can return it if we don’t like it. So, I ordered it and then I went back to The Mattress Underground and saw that it’s the same one you are using, Phoenix. I guess we both thought it has some good specs for the price, although I get the impression you’re not totally happy with yours (wool compression in the hip area). Anyway, it should arrive in a few days and I’m hoping for the best. In the meantime, we’re using our old Protect-a-Bed basic mattress protector that I don’t love.

Phoenix, thank you for all your great knowledge and advice I’ve found throughout this site. You’ve really lead me on a journey that has wound up at a truly great place for us.

Hi LAsleeper,

What a great review and feedback … thanks for all the in depth and detailed information!

Just to clarify too about the Natura Deluxe protector … one of the reasons I bought it was because it was quite thin and it and the St Dormeir were the two that I was considering because of their thinness. My other half also wanted “waterproof” rather than “water resistant” so this seemed to be the best choice. While it is true that it has compressed and thinned out in the areas that have more weight on it … it was quite thin to begin with and wasn’t really padded so this is not really an issue. The biggest reason I would choose the Dormier if I was to do it again is because it doesn’t have the waterproof membrane which would improve breathability although the Natura hasn’t slept hot for me either. The Natura has performed well and it is still in good shape after many washings and doing what it is supposed to do. It has even come to the rescue on two occasions where “accidents” of various types could have gone through and stained the mattress but didn’t.

So overall while the thinning of the wool can be noticed … it hasn’t really affected it because it was thin anyway and it still is doing what we bought it for. It’s a good choice for those who want “waterproof” and some wool together in a thinner protector rather than a “pad” or “topper”.

Thanks again for such a great review and for your kind words :slight_smile:


I strongly recommend waterproof mattress protectors - our son was born 1 month early after my wife’s water broke in the middle of the night while in bed. The mattress stayed totally dry. We would have certainly voided our mattress warranty and not gotten our refund without having a waterproof cover!

Hi LAsleeper,

That’s a pretty strong “risk mitigation” argument for a waterproof protector during pregnancy :slight_smile: