Need help identifying my preferences

The posturepedic plus hybrid high point firm is one of my top choices, and stands out even among other foam hybrids, but its a bit pricey for me. I need help identifying and putting words to why i like it, so i can find a cheaper substitute.

I like it muuuuch better than the soft version of the same model, and to me the soft version felt tougher and firmer. Am i wrong? How do i describe the particular kind of sinkiness, softness, feel, and pressure relief that the firm has and the soft lacks? Is it a point pressure/response thing? Which one is considered more “on/in the bed”? The firm has a particular type of thick sink-in surface feeling the soft lacks. Identifying and describing the difference will greatly narrow down my search.

Also, does anyone know any local mattress making stores in the broader LA area that make a cheaper substitute? Can i get a similar type of surface response from a latex bed?

Look into Flexus Comfort in Covina, CA for a local hook up.

Also, try King Koil Pure Bliss Latex in most Sit N Sleep stores. The talalay latex feel is jaw dropping

Online……check out Flobeds Vzone

John

Flexus is great, but different type of top layer response than the high point firm, which is specifically what im looking for

Order a firm or extra firm.

What does “high point firm” mean? Is that a luxury firm?

John

Why not just buy Posturepedic High Point Firm? If price is a problem……consider how much it would cost you to not sleep well.

Just buy the same mattress that you like. If needed….get a loan and buy the mattress you want. Never buy a mattress based only on price.

John

Hi ajboojay.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum. :slight_smile:

I will say a few things…

  1. trying to approximate feel between brands is a near impossible task, especially when taking into consideration proprietary materials, the type of ticking/encasements used, etc. You can have two nearly identical mattresses and change a single aspect and they’re going to have wildly different feels.
  2. trying to approximate a mattress with high end materials for something substantially cheaper means you’re going to sacrifice in feel AND durability

I looked into the mattress you’re interested in, and see they use memory foam. Latex foam has a different composition entirely but does “push back” and doesn’t collapse under body heat the way memory foam does.

Latex generally provides the “on” the bed feel, whereas memory foam generally ends up with an “in” the bed feel. This is of course not true 100% of the time in either case.

I would really caution against looking for a substitute, and instead focus on finding something you love equally in terms of comfort and support that’s within your budget. If you were to speak to someone at Flobeds or a different manufacturer about exactly what you loved about this other mattress, they’ve be able to point you to their approximation - it will, of course, not be an identical experience though.

NikkiTMU

1 Like

Thanks youre amazing. Hopefully im not over explaining.

Ive just ordered a helix midnight luxe, but will continue the search as i have doubts. The helix had some of the best pressure relief and overall comfort i tried, but might not quite be the particular response im looking for, although I might be wrong.

Im considering something thats similar to the high point firm and tempur pedic, not necessarily in quality but in that theres a sense of density in the foam, and the contour and point elasticity is sharper. Also, theres not the feeling of getting through a soft layer just to hit up against a board. I found that with Avocado mattresses, althought they were good, i found myself getting through the wool, and compressing the latex into a board causing some pressure. It was too much of a “flat” on the bed type of contour. The midnight luxe is kind of inbetween in and on the bed, but is so soft that it had great pressure relief. I want something that feels denser and thicker, yet with high contouring depth and doesnt hammock. Ive gravitated towards hybrid beds, but loved the luxe adapt which iirc has a foam base.

My budget caps at $1700

Also, do you think in some sense, i wont be able to make a final decision until i do at least 30 days with one decent contender?

I have way more questions, but dont wanna test anyones patience ha

1 Like

Im a big fan of Sleepare. Not sure if you are close to one of there showrooms. The concept is to try all the Bed in A Box mattresses in one place. I cant imagine trying 30 mattresses and returning 30.

Plus, when you buy from Sleepare….there is an additional discount. Whats not to love?

Id stay away from traditional bed in a box. Go to real life mattress stores. You usually end up with a different mattress compared to what you thought you would buy.

John

1 Like

Hi ajboojay,
Since I own a couple of Brooklyn Bedding products, I am going to jump in for a second. As a health care provider, patients often ask me, “what are the best contact lenses” or what are the best progressive mulitfocal lenses" and “what is the best eyeglass frame for me?” My answer is always the same. THE ONE THAT WORKS BEST. Now that seems like a bit of a copout of an answer, but it is the reality. I don’t recommend or prescribe on price, rep lunches, or popularity. It is always about what works. Even if it is not “recognized” as the ‘supposed’ best! The “best” of anything is only the best, if it works that good for you. If it doesnt work, last or perform the way you want, the word best has no meaning to you regarding the product.

The Helix Midnight Luxe is a great mid quality all purpose mattress. Much like the Brooklyn Bedding Signature Hybrid. Brooklyn Bedding, in my opinion, in the BinB genre produces some of the better quality mattresses.

Having said that. A company like trusted member #[DLX]
(DIY Mattress :: The Mattress Underground)
DLX Mattress
DLX Classic
builds some hybrid mattresses that not only compete, but in many ways, they out spec most of the BinB mattresses out there. In fact it is a BinB itself. But you would never know it from looking at it. Plus, with the code Phoenix offered from them in their listing of the Trusted Member section of TMU along with the sale they are running right now, makes it an incredible value for a great quality mattress.

One thing I see here is it hard to recommend anything specific, because, there are no stats about your height, weight, other than a few preferences and experiences that you have described.

The Helix is a more all around mattress. Good for the average person. Someone that is not too big or small. The Helix can be, an in, or on the bed, as a sleeping surface depending on the weight of the sleeper, the BB Signature will offer the same experience, and the DLX will offer a little “sturdier” experience.

Yes, you really need to spend several weeks on the mattress before you make a decision. @NikkiTMU walked through the the feel preferences, and her advice about trying to duplicate something with a less expensive price tag, is a spot on.

The concern when looking at BinB’s doesn’t necessarily come into play from BB or DLX as they make their mattress here in America and are transparent and consistent with the build material of their products.

When it comes to some others where the foams for the same model mattress can be sourced from 4 different countries, from 4 different manufacturing companies, you can run into problems simply trying to duplicate the same mattress, let alone trying to duplicate one you found that was out of your budget. Just not worth that effort.

If you are trying to duplicate a latex built mattress, you may have more luck in the duplication process. But even there, depending whether you are using Talalay processed vs Dunlop processed latex, you will notice some differences from two manufacturers builds.

I say, find one, pick one, and give it a whirl. Just know what you are buying. If you want more firm, look for the HD foams of 1.8lb or higher, with springs with a gauge in the 13’s and a panel cover quilted with a higher ILD foam within it. If there is viscoelastic memory foam, look for mattresses that contain 4 or 5lb foam.
My belief is always sway toward a bit firmer than softer, as you can always add a topper to finalize comfort preferences. Unless you purchase a mattress that allows you to swap out layers.
Not sure if this helps any lingering questions, but there is a little more than meets the eye here.
All the best,
Norm

2 Likes

I know Norm loves his bed in a box. But maybe he got lucky!!!

John

Prior to my BinB, I had two king mattresses. A Serta Perfect Sleeper Ultra Firm Flippable 1986-2011 and a Sealy Posturepedic Ultra Firm Pillowtop. 2011-2022. Fortunately, those were times when those companies made decent mattresses.
I could not bring myself to buy one today.
When a mattress is made with a quality support system, comfort layer that meets the requirements of the sleeper and a cover panel that suits the sleeper’s initial impact onto the mattress, why would someone continue to torture themself if they are comfortable.
Personally, I think the Pillow is more important. That is where your head rests. I had a much more difficult time getting the pillow situation correct, than the mattress.

Granted, since we like a firm mattress, it is or it isn’t. When you like something in-between, that is the most difficult. If the mattress is a 9.5 or 10/10 in firmness, not much more places to go. Sure, you can tweak the cover material or the foundation. When you are in the middle, if it is a 4/10 6/10 8/10? What is the middle anyway? So there is a lot a wiggle room to go a little firmer or softer.
The most expensive mattress I tried was a 14k shifman. It was pretty darn good. Was it better than my BinB? What exactly is better? Well, natural fibers that last longer, cover material that is more luxurious, perhaps. Will it last longer. Yeah, maybe. 15 years. Sure, I will give them that. Will they unequivocally guarantee that? No, no-one really does without question. Maybe a very select few.

The springs, no one wins that one, so it is a tie. So, I can pay 14k and hope it does all the wonderful things that is expected and risk a good chunk of change. Or, I can utilize the opportunity to test something completely out of character for 1/10 the price. I did not sacrifice my support layer. I have a double sided mattress, just in case the 9-9.5 side was too firm, I could flip it to the 8-8.5 side. My 14k mattress did not do that. Yes, I conseded to synthetic HD foam. Quite frankly, mattresses have be using it for decades. It’s certainly doesn’t contain viscoelastic heat sensitive foam, that may sink, hammock me, or swallow me whole. It doesn’t sleep hot. No body impressions, indentations or sagging… yet. It’s over a year.

Perhaps a firm latex mattress or hybrid latex may be equally suitable. That would be 3x the price or more. That would also be another risk, what if I don’t like the bouncy feel? I didn’t like the 100% natural Talalay pillow, or the 100% natural Dunlop pillow. Not that the pillow dictates how the mattress will feel.

That would be one of those, you never know until you try it sort of thing. Well, ok, Flobeds, Latex Mattress Factory, Flexus Comfort, My Green Mattress, CST, DLX and APM, if you have a king size mattress laying around you want me to test out in you firmest level, I am in NJ, would be willing to give it a test drive. PM me, I will send you my address. :sunglasses: :sleeping_bed: :sleeping_bed: :sleeping_bed: :laughing: :laughing: :rofl: :rofl: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

If I didn’t find my BinB that happened to work. I would probably be on that Shifman, although since I landed here after, The Clean Bedroom has some nice mattresses I would consider, as would most of TMU’s trusted members.

What I did do was compare the specs of every layer of every mattress that offered that information. Traditional viscoelastic memory foams in the mattress, out. Foam perimeter encased coil mattresses, out. Mattresses with thinner than 14.25 gauge, out. HD foam under 1.8lb, out. Single sided for hybrid or traditional innerspring, out. Soft, sinking and mushy, out. So, in the end, it became a simpler decision.

There is always more than one way to solve a problem, have room for improvement, and increase in some positive factor.

If someone wants to provide another way, I am always game, although, thus far, problem solved. Perhaps, I don’t even know what I am missing out on. You don’t know, what you don’t know. Maybe… I got lucky? Or… maybe not, perhaps it wasn’t luck, careful research, perhaps!. :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: Things that make you go hmmm!
Happy Holidays,
Norm

1 Like

Damn all that, and you had a harder time finding your pillow?

What do you think about the idea that there is no ideal mattress, and its possible that vastly different types of feels could work just as well?

1 Like

My initial reaction would be yes. But then, I re-read your question and thought, he said “vastly” different. I think it is more likely that vastly differently constructed mattresses could work better than vastly different feels.
Then again :thinking: :thinking:(a political response) it depends on what your definition of vastly is. :rofl: :rofl:

There are many ways to describe the feel of a mattress. Scale of 1 to 10, soft to firm. Plush surface, hard surface. Sinking, hugging, bouncy and motionless.
I would say from my own experience and my wife’s. We have stayed/lodged at a variety of places, family, friends and vacation spots. My brother used to have a pull-out couch with a thin crappy mattress in a guest room. Very bad, barely tolerable. Then he purchased a BR pressure smart mattress (we threatened to stay at a hotel from then on). The perimeter foam (edge support was so hard as compared to the comfort layer (which was supposed to be a firm feel), that it caused my wife and me to “roll” toward the center of the mattress. The mattress felt like it had no support and that memory foam just caused you to sink like we were in quicksand. Tolerable, but no way we could do 24/7 360. On that same trip we stayed at another friend’s home for a few days. They had a BR Black Plush. OMG, talk about horrible, please, give me my brother’s pull-out POS couch back.
Ritz Carlton, New York City. I can tell you what mattress it was, but not bad, cushy, thick cover panel, I would say 2" (equivalent to a tufted topper, but it wasn’t a topper) medium firmness call it a 6-7 overall feel. It had to have a good support layer. Mattress was good, probably could live with it as long as it stayed that way for a month rather than for a few day get away ( :roll_eyes:big get away from central new jersey 30 miles away) I could go on, with several other vacations and hotel mattresses. Some I actually pull the covers off and attempt to see what is under the covers.

My conclusion would be, if the “feel” is very far away particularly to the soft/ no support/ you get into the mattress and “go down” a few floors feel, then my answer would be a hard NO.

If the mattress has a really good stable support layer, and is between a 6-10 firmness, which I would admit is a “vastly” different feel from a firmness POV, then the answer is sure (not a hard yes), that a mattress feel can be vastly different and work.

If you like Beef. There are different cuts of meat. Filet, Strip, Rib, Skirt, Sirloin, you pick it. As long as the meat is tender and soft, it works for me. Prime rib has more flavor for me than Filet, but I always seem to order filet when out to dinner, as it almost guarantee’s me a soft, enjoyable dining out meal experience. Where all the other cuts, can often be questionable depending on the restaurant, how it is cooked or aged.

A mattress, for me, if the firmness is between an 8-10, as long as it is not “overdone” to the point where it is hard as a rock, is my filet minion. I probably could always enjoy the 8-10 or filet, where the “vastly” different shank steak or 1-4 feel mattress would just do it for me.

So, it really depends on how you describe “different.” I will agree, that different brands, different materials used in the construction, different styles of coils, fabrics, heights of the mattress, foundation styles, can all yield mattresses that are super comfortable, very livable, long lasting, fully supportive and one that can go 24/7 365.

Pillows, I would put them a similar category. Most people could take a beating to the body; a fall; get hit with a ball; twist an ankle; smash a finger in a car door, you can name your own injury or trauma, but a hit to the head can have its own set of challenges.

I want folks to really take care of their shoulders, neck and especially their head when they attempt to get to sleep. In my own pillow collection… Pillows stored in top shelves of closets, stacked on different beds in each bedroom of the house, easily more than 30 at this point [Norm’s Partial Pillow Collection] (The Pillow: Just How Important is it?). There are vastly different feels there.

I would say, when it comes to pillows, if you isolate one pillow user, that vastly different feels would probably not work as well. When it comes to a two-pillow user, then yes, a combination of two vastly different feel pillows, can work very well.

For me, there are some pillows feel’s, I just can’t get comfortable with. Those polyfill, super light, no support at all pillows, just don’t work for me. I can pile 3 or 4 of them and still not supportive and firm enough.
But, firm dense memory foam, like TP, nicely stuffed down/feather pillow, wool filled, horsehair filled (my current pillow), latex, Dunlop or talalay (as long as it is natural as natural is more dense and supportive) Natural vs Synthetic Latex same ILD - Not the same shredded pillows properly filled with either memory foam, latex, or combinations of those and other natural and even synthetic can produce comfortable pillows that are vastly different.

My recent acquisition of a couple of 100% horsehair pillows, elevated my comfort level to a new height. Naturally, me being me, I could not stop. So, I combined some of the extra horsehair I ordered, and some of the extra deconstructed shredded latex/memory foam I was sent with a Brooklyn Bedding pillow I ordered last year, and created a two-chamber pillow, one side horse hair, the other side the shredded foam combination. Two vastly different feels when left to their own fill individually. But together in the same pillow, may actually be a step up. Both the all horsehair and the 2 chamber are excellent for my taste. I would venture a guess that my two-chamber pillow would appeal to a much wider group of sleepers though.

So, I am not sure that I actually answered your question as ultimately my experience and philosophy will be different than someone else’s. Oddly enough, my wife at 5’4 135 and me at 6’ 220, have the same comfort preference on our mattress choice, but vastly different, when it comes to pillow choices.

All the best,
Norm

1 Like

Hi ajboojay.

Norm’s advice is sound! I’d echo that I do believe a sleep trial is necessary in most cases for deciding if a mattress is a good fit as there’s a “break in” period (as the covers stretch and foams go thorough an initial softening. Once this is done further softening is much slower) for most folks upon buying a new mattress.

NikkiTMU

1 Like