New Member: Seeking help resolving my 18 month mattress shopping ordeal...

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hello everyone,
I’ve had quite a time since last February when I decided to replace my 12 year old mattress. It pains me to admit it, but I’m currently on my seventh (!!!) mattress, and don’t feel like I’m much closer to a happy conclusion. Needless to say, whatever my initial budget was, I blew that up long ago… (My friends think I’m crazy and I think I agree!) But I’m not giving up…!

My basics: I’m in NYC, 42 years old, 130 lbs, primarily a back sleeper, healthy. I’m also a professional pianist, so, though my posture is good, my shoulders and back muscles get a huge workout everyday, and if they can’t recover at night, I’m sunk.

The mattress I owned before was a double-sided cheapy Kingsdown innerspring from Sleepy’s. Nothing overly cushiony, just enough to support me and float me. My desire was to find something like it but better quality. I know the business has changed, but I figured I could find something out there like it. Ha-ha.

The sordid details: I went through 3 from Sleepy’s: increasingly firm, as, for some reason, my pelvis would sink too far in all of them (i.e., the Simmons Avondale firm) until ending up with a Carolina firm, which was just a rock. At which point, I gave up on Sleepy’s and tried 2 of the Simmons Truenergy line from Macy’s. Better on my shoulders, but still pelvis issues, and to me, like swimming in foam! Couldn’t ever adjust to it. Well, those went back and, though I really knew better, I got talked into trying the MySide Green from Sleepy’s. Wow, that thing caused me so much back pain I could barely breathe. Eventually I turned it upside down, put on a foam topper, and slept on that through the winter. (Eventually I cut the pillowtop off, will Youtube the results at some point, seeing it in its cheap glory is something else!)

Anyhow, earlier this year I headed up to Norwalk mattress factory. Didn’t like their innerspring beds much (nor their salesmanship, that’s another story) - they all use 13 gauge linked springs, no variation, and I didn’t find the poly foam on them very comfy. I took a chance on one of their cotton-quilted latex mattresses, figuring if it was too firm I could put a topper on it. Well, it is wayyy to firm (a 36 ILD core) so I sought out Bob at Custom Sleep design, and right now have a 3" 19/14 ILD split. And I’m still miserable!

It’s hard to determine what goes wrong, I can fall asleep right away on anything, it’s what happens when I’m asleep. Or doesn’t happen: I don’t sink into a very deep sleep, and my muscles don’t relax or recuperate all night. So a dull fatigue/ache/soreness follows me around all day. My brain seems aware of the slight shakiness, the potential for moment, of the latex, and is on guard all night (I actually sleep on the 19 part, the 14 is too quivery for me). And I don’t feel like I sink into it enough: even the soft stuff I find too resilient. As good as Bob is being to me, I wonder if any combo of Talalay will ever work for me.

So I guess my questions are: should I go back to trying to find the innerspring my subconscious seems to want? (For instance, I like the feel of the cushion-firm Stearns & Fosters or Serta, but have stayed away due to the companies reputation. Who DOES make good versions of these?) Or: is there a sensible way to try to make my latex configuration work? Draw in a different kind of foam? I’ve stayed away from the all-out memory foam beds, they seem firm to me, but plenty of my friends swear by them.

So there it is: Hello! I’ve had quite a year and half, would love to resolve this and get back to living my usual, hyper-active life. Any thoughts?

Ed

2

I seem to have left this out: love this forum! Done plenty of research here over the past months. Enough to be dangerous, it would seem :slight_smile:

3

Hi mg517,

You’ve probably read this already but just in case … the first step is always post #1 here. This is the most important post on the forum for anyone who is looking for a new mattress and will help you with the basic information you need as well as what to focus on and what to avoid completely.

As you will see … the choice of materials or components is a personal preference and there are no better or worse materials … only versions of every material or component that are higher or lower quality.

No matter which materials or components you choose or prefer (latex, memory foam, innersprings, polyfoam etc) … the goal is always to choose a design that provides the best balance between pressure relief and neutral alignment in all your sleeping positions. There is no intrinsically “right or wrong” or “better or worse” combinations … only the combinations and designs that best fit your unique needs and preferences. Don’t forget that every layer of a mattress interacts to different degrees with every other layer of a mattress and with the unique body type and sleeping style of the person that is sleeping on it. This is why a topper on one mattress may work well but not work well at all on a different mattress because both the topper and the mattress can interact with each other and with you in sometimes unpredictable ways when you sleep on it and the same topper would be fine on another type of mattress.

There is also a wide range of different sensitivity levels to the basic needs of a mattress which is pressure relief and neutral alignment of the spine and joints and some of us are closer to the “I can sleep on anything” end of the scale where a wide range of mattresses will work well while others are closer to the “princess and the pea” end of the scale where a much narrower and more specific range of designs are the only ones that will work best. This is where very careful testing and good options to make fine tuning adjustments after a purchase (rather than completely exchanging a mattress and starting over again) can be very valuable.

In most cases … the knowledge and experience of the person you buy from can be a major part of a successful mattress purchase and “finding the experts” is usually a much more effective approach than “becoming an expert”. This is part of why I normally suggest staying out of chain stores where the knowledge level is usually very low and staying away from major brands where meaningful information about their mattresses or the ability to make adjustments after a purchase is usually missing.

So I would follow the steps one by one and focus on “connecting with the experts” and then working with them so they can help you resolve what clearly is a difficult challenge. You have many very good options in the New York area and the better ones I know of are listed in post #2 here and there is a more categorized list with more detailed descriptions of many of them in post #7 here.

Sometimes it can be a good idea to do a complete re-set of your fundamental approach and underlying assumptions about buying a mattress and without excluding any possibility (except the retailers or manufacturers that are not transparent about the materials in their mattresses or mass market retailers which are more focused on profit margins and commissions than helping and educating their customers) start from the beginning again with a new and different underlying approach that can greatly increase your odds of success.

Phoenix

4

Phoenix,
Thanks for the reply. It’s been comforting to follow some recent discussions and realize I’m not the only one who’s had such trouble finding something that works.
It’s certainly not my ambition to become an expert myself, but I’ve badly advised by a few (looking at you, Norwalk Mattress) so I try be be more informed. Thanks to my topper from Bob at CSD, I’m sleeping well enough that I don’t wake up feeling like a tractor has run over me all night and someone put a hornet’s nest in my brain. (Looking at you, Sleepy’s.) Unfortunately, they seem to have shut their Westport showroom and are currently without a location! So I’m not sure when they’ll be able to provide me with a better configuration. Hmmm.
As best as I can figure, what happens to me on most mattresses I’ve tried (I’ve been everywhere on your NYC link page plus some) is that my lower back and pelvis sink badly into the mattress. My ideal, feel-wise, is an immediate sense of surface support, with the give/bounce underneath. Throw any layers of top foam into the equation and I’m miserable. What I’ve found recently that I do like very much are the beds made by CHBeckley. They basic and well made, they’re great! No foam!
So, I don’t know that I have a question right now. Hopefully Bob will be in touch before long. I trust him, I just don’t know what’s up with his business. I’m currently on a 19/28 split latex topper on a 36 ILD base. As usual, my lower back caves in; I’m wondering if it’s best to abandon the zoning idea and maybe try a straight 19 or 25. Unfortunately, I don’t know anyone else in the area who does anything like Bob does. (Dixie Foam has very limited options.)
NYC has a lot of choices for sure, but few places that offer the customizable construction options that places in other parts of the country seem to. (And I’m a city boy = no car!) But I’m glad I might have one backup option…
So anyhow, thanks for all you do here. At some point I’m sure I’ll be back!
E

5

Hi mg517,

Yes … I’m also waiting to talk with Bob to find out what is happening with CSD.

There are so many different types and firmness levels of foam (either latex foam, polyfoam, or memory foam) with so many different properties that I’m not so sure I would exclude foam from your choices but if you do decide to go in that direction then you would likely be looking at an innerspring/natural fiber mattress such as the ones you tried at CHBeckley which is more labor intensive and a more costly choice in most cases but for those that don’t do well on any other type of mattress can be well worth the extra cost. As in anything else … your own personal testing and experience is the most important part of making the best possible choices.

Zoning can actually be helpful with more difficult “mattress challenges” because it can provide different levels of comfort and support under each individual area of the body and can be a very successful approach when it’s needed but like with anything else, the specific design is important. Another manufacturer that offers zoned latex mattresses is FloBeds who may also be worth talking to.

Your lower back could be “collapsing” because your pelvis is sinking in too far which can “tilt” the pelvis which is the biggest factor in controlling the lumbar curve but with body shapes that have a bigger differential between the waist and shoulders (more often men), the waist and hips (mor often women), or that have a more pronounced lumbar curve than normal, then a firmer zone (relative to the pelvic area) directly under the recessed lumbar curve itself rather than just a firmer zone under the pelvis or middle area of the mattress can be helpful.

Phoenix

6

Well, hopefully I will hear from Bob. I’d hate to have to start over!

With last year’s beds, I tended to feel what you describe, the pelvis sinks too far, a problem my brain seems super aware of.

With my current situation, the 19 feels good on my shoulders (the 14 caused a lot of muscle pain), while the 28 feels too stiff against my pelvis, tilting it a little up towards my head (while back-sleeping), with a similar problem on my side. Enough to make it uncomfortable, anyway.

I’ll take a look at Flobeds, though should I decide I need to start from scratch, I’d probably pursue the Innerspring route again, as maybe that’s just what my body prefers. I actually was surprised at the Beckley prices, I thought they seemed pretty reasonable.

I’ll keep an eye on the forum for any CSD updates.

Thanks again!
E

7

So as I wait for Bob at CSD to resurface, today I visited the Clean Bedroom showroom here in NYC and I’m so glad I did! Having finally found a place that let me investigate the feel of Dunlop versus Talalay, I realize that, hands down, I prefer the Dunlop. It supports my lower back and pelvis much better than Talalay seems to. (So maybe it’s okay that Bob is out of the picture…)

In any event, I’m not sure I’m ready to buy one of their beds - they’re pricey and there are a few places in NJ and CT I want to investigate before spending a sizable amount of money anywhere. But I do really want to improve what I’m sleeping on now (hasn’t worked for about 5 months), so I wonder if you have thoughts on my current plan.

Since what I sleep on now almost works (3 inches of zoned latex on basically a solid 36 ILD core):

Buy a piece of 3 inch piece of Soft Dunlop from a place like Foamsource, no cover, use the one that came with my CSD topper. (I didn’t like the covers sold at Clean Bedroom.)

If this is comfortable, upgrade the top of the mattress with some type of cotton/wool mattress cover - there are plenty of different types I’ve seen, and I’d rather pick something that suits the overall bed, not just the topper.

Any thoughts? I don’t just want to chuck what I have - I know I like a firm bed, but feel I just need to provide a softer surface. I think trying Dunlop might make a world of difference.

8

Hi mg517,

Dunlop has a higher support factor than Talalay (it gets firmer faster when you sink deeper) and it has a more solid less “lively” feel than Talalay and there are many people who prefer it. My daughter also tried both and also prefers Dunlop over Talalay (she has an all Dunlop mattress). There is no “better or worse” here but just a matter of preference and which one seems to work best for the needs and preferences of different people. There are also many people who like a Dunlop support core with Talalay in the comfort layers.

I would keep in mind that primary support generally comes more from the deeper layers of the mattress not from the top layers which has more to do with secondary support (filling in the gaps) and pressure relief and that Dunlop is generally firmer than the same ILD in Talalay. It could be that with your lighter weight you may need a thinner comfort layer over the firmer support core to keep you closer to the support layers and create a more “stable” feel (less soft foam to sink into). The thickness of the layers often has as much to do with success as the ILD of the layers. I do know that the people at Clean Bedroom are generally very knowledgeable about their products.

With Dunlop you may be able to “get away” with the same 3" because of its higher support factor and because it has a more solid “feel” but you would still have the same support layer underneath you (your 36 ILD mattress and any other quilting layers that it has) and you may have some trouble sinking in enough with your shoulders because of the greater firmness as you sink in deeper with Dunlop. In a mattress that uses both types of latex … Dunlop is typically used for support underneath softer Talalay rather than the other way around but there are no “rules” that say it has to be this way. I would also keep in mind that all the layers of your mattress interact together so what is under a topper will also have an effect on how the topper feels and performs. All of this is as much of an art as a science.

Of course all of this is speculation because there is no formula that can predict individual experience and no matter what most people may feel “on average” on any combination, the only real way to know how it will work for you is through your own personal experience. Your best odds would be to try and match the ILD range (or the density) and design of the Dunlop mattress you tested and liked as much as is possible with the options you have available (I don’t know the specifics of the mattress you tested). Based on your feedback and apparent preferences though your plan would certainly be worth a try as long as the Dunlop was soft enough. Post #4 here includes some good sources for Dunlop latex layers or toppers.

Phoenix

9

Thought I’d come on here and update: After ordering some samples from them, I went ahead and ordered a three inch of RMM’s softest Dunlop topper to replace the zoned topper from CSD that hadn’t been working out. I needed a better solution for what I currently own, and I decided it was worth the expense.
Well, it definitely was! (Fast service and discount, too!) I’ve been using it and my sleep is a hundred times better! You were right though, it is fairly firm stuff and my shoulders don’t sink as much as would be ideal. I’ve found that putting an inch of memory foam on top makes it just about perfect, unfortunately the MF topper I own is really yucky stuff I bought from Overstock.com. I’ve been poking around online, but it seems like all the better products are only sold 2 inches and thicker. Wondering if anyone has thoughts - is it possible to find good quality memory foam sold as 1 inch? Am I over-thinking it and 2 inches of 4 or 5 lb would be ok? Perhaps another direction to look into.
Come next year I may indeed decide to start over, but for now I’m really close to something workable, just looking to make a wise final addition so I can get through some very busy upcoming months.
Thanks as always, having a place to discuss this has been a great help!!

10

Hi mg517,

Just thought I’d chime in that FoamOrder.com sells 1" memory foam toppers with several different densities (3, 4, or 5.3 lbs). It can be difficult to find 1" toppers in either memory foam or latex.

I also had a soft Dunlop topper and definitely found it firmer than I expected, and eventually covered it with soft Talalay. Good luck!

11

Excellent - I see that they do! (Wow, they also have clearance memory foam mattresses for about the price of a NYC Metrocard…)
Yeah, tried a latex topper for about six months - maybe it should have been thinner, maybe not zoned, but at this point I’m not inclined to continue down that road.

12

Hi mg517,

That’s great news and thanks for the update :slight_smile:

The topper and component list in post #4 here had several sources for 1" memory foam toppers in a link to post #1 here which had the results of some earlier searching I did for 1" memory foam toppers but it seems that most of them have been discontinued (although as DahliaM mentioned Foamorder still carries them).

With a thin topper the density of the memory foam is not as important because they are so easy to replace and it’s more common to find them in a 3 lb or lower density than 4 lbs and up but I would still tend towards 4 lbs and up because this will have more of the “memory foam effect” and won’t be as flimsy. You will sink into (or “through”) lower density memory foam more easily.

The thickness of a topper that works best depends on what it is going on but the more “subjective” guidelines I usually suggest are …

1" = Just a touch to a little
2" = A little to a fair bit
3" = A fair bit to a lot

This can help you use your actual experience on the mattress as a reference point. 2" is a good “average” choice.

I spent some time looking and didn’t find any other sources for 1" memory foam toppers in 4 lbs or more although there are a few that are in the 3 lb or less range that a google search brought up.

Phoenix

13

I just wanted to add that I’ve used memory foam toppers on my beds in the past, and each one got progressively softer and softer with use and time, not to mention that they yellow quickly. I was told this happens because memory foam is petroleum based, and will start breaking down immediately. I’m just saying this because, although it may work now, it’s not really a long term solution to your problem. Just seems like more of a temporary Band-Aid, and you’ll be back to square one very quickly once it does start to soften…

If I understand your previous posts, you’ve got an innerspring mattress as a base (that you cut the pillowtop off) and then latex toppers of 36 ILD, and a Dunlop soft on top – now you’re gonna add a 1" memory foam layer? Just want to make sure I understand completely.

14

No, not quite, though my story is long and confusing. Lots of bad decisions and bad advice. What I’m on now is a latex mattress from Norwalk that is essentially a six inch 36 ILD Talalay core cotton quilted on both sides. I only weigh 135lbs so it’s far too firm. Since at Norwalk all sales are final, I bought a 3 inch Talalay topper at CDS that I never took to. The Dunlop is much better, but to get the proper sink, I imagine it should have a medium layer between it and the firm, based on other mattresses I’ve tested. Just not sure I want to go that far with this ‘creation’. So yes, if a MF topper makes the next 6 months better, I’m okay with that. January will be a better time to determine the ultimate solution.

15

Hi mg517,

The most common configuration would be to use the softest material on top and then getting progressively firmer as you go deeper. If you need more “sinking in” … especially at lighter weights … then this would typically mean that you would likely need an inch or two of softer material on top of the Dunlop.

A medium firmness layer in between the softer Dunlop and the firmer 6" 36 ILD latex layer will also provide more softness (softness and thickness work together) but it won’t change the surface softness of the Dunlop so your choice would depend on the density (firmness) of the Dunlop and how deeply you sink into the mattress. With your lower weight it’s not as likely that you would benefit to the same degree from the additional softness that would come from a firmer middle layer as you would by adding a softer material on top (and again this would depend on the specifics of the Dunlop topper you have).

Do you know the density or ILD of the Dunlop topper?

Memory foam comes in a wide range of densities and not everything made from petroleum has low durability (this is commonly heard on the internet from people who believe that natural materials are always more durable or even “safer” but there is ofen no factual basis to this belief and these types of assessments need to be made on a material by material basis). Some types of higher density polyfoam and 4 and 5 lb memory foams are durable materials and it’s the lower density memory foams or polyfoams that break down much more quickly. There are many people sleeping on higher density memory foam that they have owned for 10 or 15 years and they are still working very well.

Your mattress is a good base for a topper and uses good quality materials so at least from this perspective you make a good choice.

The choice of materials is always personal preference and there are lower and higher quality (and of course softer and firmer) versions of all materials.

Phoenix

16

I think your advice about the Dunlop is correct, which is why I haven’t attempted to add a middle layer. I know the Dunlop beds I’ve liked have had a firm/medium/soft construction, but as I’ve learned this year, inventing your own mattress can be a real pain, so I’m trying to think through my steps carefully.

Memory Foam isn’t too pricey, so throwing an inch or two on the Dunlop seems like a no-brainer. Glad to know that the better stuff should be reliable. I think a little bit will probably do it.

Also a no-brainer - one of those why didn’t I think of it before - I took a level to my bed-frame and discovered the legs at the foot of the bed needed to be raised about a quarter inch. I haven’t slept on it yet, but I can already sense a big improvement in my alignment! I guess this experience had made me sensitive to this stuff…

The adventure continues…

Edit to add: the specs on the Dunlop from RMM are:
4.75 pound density w/ 16-18 IFD
100% natural latex material (certified by eco INSTITUT)

17

“Memory foam comes in a wide range of densities and not everything made from petroleum has low durability (this is commonly heard on the internet from people who believe that natural materials are always more durable or even “safer” but there is ofen no factual basis to this belief and these types of assessments need to be made on a material by material basis). Some types of higher density polyfoam and 4 and 5 lb memory foams are durable materials and it’s the lower density memory foams or polyfoams that break down much more quickly. There are many people sleeping on higher density memory foam that they have owned for 10 or 15 years and they are still working very well.”

Thank you for correcting my misinformation. I was told this by someone in the latex industry, and believed it based upon my personal experience with a memory foam that was obviously of very low quality. I stand corrected. Thank you very much.

18

Hi mg517,

This is about 75 kg/m3 which would likely be closer to the mid or high 20’s range and based on your weight I would use a softer layer on top of this.

You could experiment with a lower density 3 lb memory foam topper from a big box store such as WalMart or Costco which would lower the risk of experimenting because of their return policy. Just keep in mind that the main difference “in general” between a lower density memory foam is that it will allow you to sink in more and you would feel more of the firmness of the Dunlop below the topper.

Something like this which according to the shipping weight is in the area of about 3.5 - 3.75 lbs may be worth trying as an experiment which would give you a reference point and your experience may give you a good guideline for which direction to go next if it doesn’t work for you.

Phoenix

19

Well, hmm. Are there softer versions of Dunlop out there? The Sleeptek Oyasumi beds that Clean Bedroom sells, for instance, seem very soft on top. I think the one I liked was 4 in firm 4 in medium 2 in soft.

I own some stuff like the WalMart memory foam and I find it flimsy. I’d be interested in trying the better 4 or 5 lbs versions that other companies sell.

The big ‘and yet’ for me, is that, though the RMM Dunlop is indeed a bit firm, I can sense that, on my back, my hips are sinking a little further below my shoulders than I’d like them to be. Not much, and not nearly as bad as on the Talalay I tried (even a 14/28 split didn’t work at all) , but I wonder if adding softer layers on top will just magnify this effect. This has been my biggest ‘issue’ since I got rid of my old bed last year, for whatever reason I’ve just had a devilish time finding something that’s soft enough to be accommodating but also lets my hips float as high as I’d like. It’s very frustrating.

20

Hi mg517,

I certainly agree with this overall but I linked the one I did because it appeared to be a little higher in density and is “in the range” in terms of thickness so it would give you a good way to experiment with low risk before buying something that had better quality/density and performance.

Yes … there is a wide range of Dunlop densities available and some of them are softer. It’s a little more difficult to find Dunlop made in a mold in softer ILD or density ranges but Dunlop made with a continuous pour method are becoming more available in softer ILD’s that are roughly comparable to Talalay although most of them (but not all) are synthetic blends. I would also keep in mind that all the layers will contribute to how soft a mattress feels not just the firmness or thickness of the top layer. Density is usually the most reliable indicator of the firmness of Dunlop because Dunlop doesn’t really have an accurate ILD (it’s a range of ILD’s across the surface) and many manufacturers only make it to density not ILD and then ILD information is added afterwards and it’s not always accurate or specific. Some rough Dunlop ILD/Density guidelines are in post #2 here.

That’s because hips don’t “float” they only “sink” and they are the heaviest part of the body. The key (and challenge) is to have “just enough” pressure relieving layers so that the hips/pelvis is “stopped” quickly enough to prevent the pelvis from tilting (which in turn affects the natural curve of the Lumbar spine). In some cases with more challenging body types, zoning (with variable firmness levels under different parts of the body) can be effective (see post #11 here).

The goal is always to make sure that all parts of the body sink in evenly so that your alignment when you are lying down is very close to what it is when you are standing up straight with good posture. If you imagine your self floating in the air in a certain sleeping position with the spine in good alignment and then slowly being lowered onto a mattress then what you would want is to keep sinking into the surface until all parts of the body are “stopped” at the same time without one part of the body being stopped before the others. This sounds simple but it is also the basis of the art and science of all mattress design.

In most cases it’s best to work with a “bottom up” approach which means a support system that is firm enough for a certain body type and then adding “just enough” comfort layers on top so that you are as close to the support core as possible. In many cases people will make adjustments that “jumps over” the most likely solution and goes from one side of their ideal range to the other so slow and incremental steps can make a big difference for people who are more sensitive than others to either pressure or alignment issues.

Phoenix