Simplified Choice Mattresses aka Disruptors, Bed In A Box, One Choice Fits All, Universal Comfort, Millennial Mattresses

Hi Caeser.

Fleep mattress is one of the newer Bed in the Box (BIB) entries on the Canadian market (2 years old) that capitalizes on the reversible feature and the 2 comfort options it offers. While in terms of durability this mattress would not raise any red flags for average BMI weight ranges, I would place a slight caution for higher BMI ranges (See the durability guidelines here) They do not list the ILD specifications of the layers to be able to assess the bed design as it relates to softness/firmness needs of any individual sleeper. In the case of poly and memory foam, density and ILD specifications are the only reliable indicators of quality and suitability regardless of any names or word descriptions used to describe the foams on a website. If anything, and generally speaking, foam names and descriptions are more connected with marketing and generally do nothing more than to created confusion in a market that is already saturated by clever ways of using words to “push” and make a product more “marketable” based on an impression that is created about the foam/product rather than quantifiable qualities given by facts, specifications, testing and raw data.

In the case of Fleep while the idea of having two-sided BIB is novel as it can accommodate a wider range of needs it is essentially a BIB with two comfort options. While they list two firmness choices (firm and soft) it is not clear where in the range of firmness/softens this would fall … e.g. how soft the soft is or how firm the firm is. A more reliable way of assessing suitability would be listing the ILD. Someone looking for a “different firm” in a Fleep mattress would not be able to make it work unless they exchange one of the memory foam layers inside the mattress.

You can also read some of my initial thoughts about the mattress in Post #2 here and you can also perform a quick Forum Search here to see what has been previously discussed about them on the forum.

Phoenix.
(ADMIN Note: The posts about Fleep to its own dedicated topic to make it easier to research. )

@ Sweet Dreams

[indent]As usual, thank you for your valuable contributions. :slight_smile:
As you well noted Eric LK M (first-time poster) inserted a promotional post and will be shortly removed from our forum. [/indent]

Hi Caeser.

Fleep mattress is one of the newer Bed in the Box (BIB) entries on the Canadian market (2 years old) that capitalizes on the reversible feature and the 2 comfort options it offers. While in terms of durability this mattress would not raise any red flags for average BMI weight ranges, I would place a slight caution for higher BMI ranges (See the durability guidelines here) They do not list the ILD specifications of the layers to be able to assess the bed design as it relates to softness/firmness needs of any individual sleeper. In the case of poly and memory foam, density and ILD specifications are the only reliable indicators of quality and suitability regardless of any names or word descriptions used to describe the foams on a website. If anything, and generally speaking, foam names and descriptions are more connected with marketing and generally do nothing more than to created confusion in a market that is already saturated by clever ways of using words to “push” and make a product more “marketable” based on an impression that is created about the foam/product rather than quantifiable qualities given by facts, specifications, testing and raw data.

In the case of Fleep while the idea of having two-sided BIB is novel as it can accommodate a wider range of needs it is essentially a BIB with two comfort options. While they list two firmness choices (firm and soft) it is not clear where in the range of firmness/softens this would fall … e.g. how soft the soft is or how firm the firm is. A more reliable way of assessing suitability would be listing the ILD. Someone looking for a “different firm” in a Fleep mattress would not be able to make it work unless they exchange one of the memory foam layers inside the mattress.

You can also read some of my initial thoughts about the mattress in Post #2 here and you can also perform a quick Forum Search here to see what has been previously discussed about them on the forum.

Phoenix.
(ADMIN Note: The posts about Fleep to its own dedicated topic to make it easier to research. )

Tried SOL medium 9" queen last summer and alas it didn’t work – persistent hip pain. But I haven’t found a better solution and need to replace futon mattress. Tempted to order SOL firm 9" and cross my fingers. Can’t return/get$back twice in one year (their terms are beyond reasonable, great company to work with) so rather worried about decision. I understand their firm no longer as firm as when they started out due to complaints of too firm (which I’d probably like). Have others moved from med to firm SOL with good success? I want to love this mattress but bottom line need good sleep without pain. I’m 5’8" 135 pounds 68 year old female physically active.

Hi moonunitann.

While I don’t have personal experience with either configuration SOL transitioned in Spring to softer versions to accommodate the consumer “need” for more plushness. When I asked Karl about it he commented that the change is not very noticeable but that the slight change was prompted by consumer feedback and of course in mind with the fact that the Dunlop has a firmer feel. You might want to give SOL a call and to find out if they think that the change can be enough to make a difference for you. I am sure they accumulated enough consumer feedback to be able to estimate this.

Phoenix

Hi everyone,

Not sure if this is the right place to write this, but I need help looking for a supportive innerspring mattress. I got married a year ago, and within the last year, we’ve gone through 4 different king mattresses (Helix, Helix extra firm, Dreamfoam Spring Dreams, & Simmons Beautyrest Altman). All 4 of them sunk a lot around my hips and I’ve actually developed lower back pain. I almost exclusively sleep on my back.

I actually love the twin mattress I grew up sleeping on and I’ve slept on it for over 30 years. It’s a Sealy Posture Premium Level IV but I can’t find any information about it. The main reason I like it is that it’s very supportive with no sinkage. I really feel like it pushes up against my hips and I never had back pain when I used to sleep on it. I don’t think it even has foam layers, which is what I actually like! I’ve read that old innerspring mattresses were constructed with a thin layer of cotton/wool batting, and I think that’s what my twin mattress has.

So I was hoping someone could help me find a mattress with:
-Supportive innersprings (coil gauge 13 or less. The Beautyrest I’m currently sleeping on has 13.75 gauge coils and I think they’re too flimsy)
-Minimal/no foam
-<$3000 (but willing to spend more if necessary)
-A good return policy if possible (I’m really glad I have been able to get my money back on my previous 4 purchases and I would hate it if I ended up with a bad mattress I couldn’t return)

I should probably add that I live in the greater Los Angeles area, specifically San Bernardino, but I commute back to Los Angeles a lot so I wouldn’t mind checking out a few stores there. I checked out a retailer called Mattress City once, but it was such a bad experience that I now want to avoid those similar big name retailers (like Sit n Sleep).

Thanks so much!

Hi drderek.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

As a back sleeper, you are correct that you need a firmer and more supportive sleeping surface. Back sleeping has a slightly less curvy profile that is not quite as deep as in side sleeping and the “gap” that needs to be filled in with the comfort layer for pressure relief is generally the small of the back (the lumbar area) which is why a slightly thinner and firmer top layer will generally work a much better. In other words for back sleeping a slightly shallower cradle is needed. A good starting point for a back sleeper is 2" of softer material on top of your mattress and then increasing or decreasing from there depending on other factors like weight, preferences, or other sleeping positions.

I am not sure what’s in the comfort layer of the Posture Premium IV but regardless of the brand generally mattresses that were made that long ago tended to use higher quality materials (in the comfort layers especially) than the mainstream mattresses made today (see post #3 here ). Even though you do not perceive any “sinkage” it’s almost sure to have lost some of comfort layers’ height and firmness since you purchased it even if the foams don’t show any visible impressions. (this can be confirmed by testing ILDs of the materials in your mattress for firmness/softness). If you were to open up the mattress you’d probably also discover that the foam (or batting) inside had some minimal compression but not enough to make any meaningful difference in comfort or support. If your mattress was two-sided (which were also the norm at that time) then if you flipped the mattress on occasion it would also even out any impressions and allow the side that wasn’t in use to recover and even though it would still be gradually softening over time, it would soften more evenly over the entire surface so it wouldn’t be as visible.

While there may be some slight impressions (that you may or may not notice over time) a firm hybrid latex mattress that is a suitable match for you in terms of PPP will last you for many years. You can see a video here of a latex mattress that was in use for almost 50 years (although most people wouldn’t keep any mattress for nearly that long because their own needs and preferences would also change over time and 50 years for any mattress isn’t a realistic expectation) and both blended Talalay and 100% natural Dunlop have a long history of lasting decades (see post #9 here ).

I’m not sure what you’ve read since you found the site but just in case you haven’t read it yet … the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.
Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for).

The criteria you previously listed fits a wide range of products so unfortunately, it is not possible to predict and point you to a specific mattress or combination of materials and components you will do best with or that you will sleep best on with any certainty based on specs or “theory at a distance” …I would be very skeptical of anyone who claims that they do but you seem to be heading in the right direction in planning to do some local testing… you’ve been through quite a few mattresses in the last year and you’ve collected enough data points that will be helpful in your discussion with trusted manufacturer/retailer to find a suitable and long lasting mattress. Some good local testing will also give you a much better sense of the many different types of materials and components that are used in mattresses and some reference points about the types of mattresses (see this article) and confirm the firmness level you tend to prefer which can help you narrow down your choices regardless of whether you end up purchasing locally or online.

At a quick glance some of the Trusted members of our site that carry products that fit your description are Flexus Comfort and Nest Bedding. Flexus has their manufacturing facility in Covina, and Nest in Los Angeles and also CA on your I10 or 210 commutes that you can visit and whose products would meet the criteria that you are looking for in a mattress and will go to great lengths to ensure that the mattress is suitable for you. Also going the other direction on I15 you can visit the Mattress Makers that has some double sided firm options such as the Kensington firm that you may wish to test. I’d certainly do some local testing and rely on the guidance of a knowledgeable manufacturer or retailer that can help you narrow down your choices.

If you are interested specifically in latex or latex hybrid mattresses then this link in the tutorial is to a list of the members here that sell mattresses online and many of them sell latex and latex hybrid mattresses that use different types and blends of latex that have a wide range of different designs, options, features, return and exchange policies, and prices that may be worth considering. Post #3 here also includes a list of many of the online manufacturers that sell component latex mattresses.

Phoenix

@ Hi bcodemz.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

As your questions are quite similar to drderek’s post above we’ve moved your post into this topic.

I understand your urgency to purchase a new mattress and you certainly aren’t alone … but this is exactly the time to slow down and do some preliminary research to learn about your broader needs and preferences, a few basics about mattresses, and to gather all the information you’d need to make a successful mattress choice. The first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here (there is a condensed version of it at the end of that post) which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice … and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

Your criterion is very broad and can’t be used in isolation … each mattress category can include hundreds of different mattresses with a very wide range of different designs, different “feels”, different characteristics, and different firmness levels. Every individual layer and component in a mattress (including the cover and any quilting material) will affect the feel and response of every other layer and component both above and below it and the mattress “as a whole” so each mattress category will generally include some mattresses that have a design that will be a good “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) and others that use the same type of materials and components and are in the same category and may be just as durable but have a different design or firmness level that may be completely unsuitable for you to sleep on … even if it uses the same general type of materials and components. Along with the support/firmness you’d also need to assess the comfort/pressure relief both of which are the most important functions of a mattress for everyone and the only way to know for certain whether any specific mattress will be a suitable choice that provides you with both will be based on your own careful testing or your own personal experience because different people can have very different needs and preferences in a mattress in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) You can read more about this in mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here.

Phoenix

Thanks for the answers. I was looking for it from past few days as I was having trouble related to matress.

Hi rob1221.

Glad to be of help … and welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for your response! I’ll definitely look into your recommendations, especially firm latex hybrid mattresses.

I’m in the process of returning my current mattress and the company I bought it from is offering to let me try a Simmons Beautyrest Platinum Holloway extra firm mattress for 120 days (I pay the difference, but I can return it for a full refund plus no return fee). It seems like a good option to get some back relief right away until I do some more research on other mattresses. Here is the link to the mattress: https://www.mattressfirm.com/simmons-beautyrest/platinum-holloway-13.5-inch-extra-firm-mattress/mfi126479.html

What are your thoughts on the Simmons Beautyrest Platinum extra firm? It seems to be a few inches of firm foam on top of pocketed coils. I tried it out at a store and it feels supportive, but do you think it would hold-up well over time?

Thanks

Phoenix, when trying to find a durable mattress for my wife and I (18 BMI and 22 BMI) do I look for mattresses that suit higher BMIs (adding up our weights e.g. 254lbs) or do I look for a mattress that suits the partner with the higher BMI?

I’m concerned that if I get a mattress that suits the partner with the higher BMI rather than adding our total weights and looking for a mattress that suits that weight total, the mattress will not be durable enough and deteriorate quicker.

Thanks!

Hi freddie89.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

The recommended durability guidelines are relative to each of the individuals sleeping on the mattress and I’d certainly use the highest BMI of the two sleepers as a baseline (in this case 22 BMI) and not their two BMI’s added together. In either case you both are well within the normal weight ranges and typically the weight is distributed on the entire contact surface quite evenly with some exceptions for people with heavier “areas” or who are more “active” on a mattress that can wear out materials a little faster than lighter, more evenly proportioned, or less active people in which case higher density foams than just the “minimum” guidelines can be more important. I would not have any durability concerns but just in case you wish to rule out some other factors that can affect durability you can peruse post #4 here or post #2 here.

Phoenix

Hi drderek.

I generally advise against the major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta, as they all tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors. This lower quality material will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay, which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (along with the major retailers that focus on them as well) regardless of how they may feel in a showroom along with any mattress where you aren’t able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here).

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

I tried to Fleep mattress and didn’t find it comfortable, and I’m currently trying the Novosbed medium with the comfort+ firm topper and it seems better for me than just the mattress without the topper. I’m realizing that I need a firmer mattress to be comfortable. It’s been a few days with the topper, but since it’s foam do you think it will soften up once it gets “broken in”?

Also, I wanted to ask you your thoughts on two mattress I’m considering, the Logan and Cove firm and the Silk and Snow Hybrid. These are the specs for each:

Silk and Snow:

  • 1’’ 1.8 lbs density quilted cooling gel foam 1.8lbs density
  • 1’’ 3 lbs density gel memory foam
  • 1’’ 1.8 lbs high density foam
  • 1000 pocket coils (Queen)

Logan and cove:
Pillow top:

  • Silk blend fill
  • 1’’ 2.5 lbs cooling gel
  • 1’’ 1.8 lbs contouring eco foam

Mattress:

  • 2’’ 1.8 lbs supportive (?) eco foam
  • 828 pocket coils (queen)

On the surface is looks like the Silk and Snow uses higher quality materials as they have a slightly denser gel foam and more pocket coils. I wanted to ask you:

  • Is there a concern in either of these mattress for someone with an average BMI?

  • Would the extra pocket coils be beneficial in terms of durability or comfort? They have the same gauge (13.5 in the top and bottom 3rd of the matress and 14.5 in the middle)

  • Is there any concern with a silk blend fill pillow top? I’ve read that pillow tops tend to sag/compress over time, and I believe I read in one of your durability guidelines that quilted tops are generally more durable which the Silk and Snow has.

  • Anything else you can speak to regarding these mattresses?

Thanks in advance.

Hi Caeser,

Thanks for the question and the information. All toppers will soften up in time regardless of construction, but it will be difficult to tell on a day to day basis, as it happens gradually. Also FYI, we will probably move this post to a more appropriate topic once you reply.

Here is a link regarding the durability / BMI / support for 12" hybrid Silk and Snow… right here. This article discusses your concerns about the quality of

Regarding the question about support of coils:

In general the properties and support of a spring unit are given by many interrelated factors such as wire gauge - typically between 12 and 19 (the lower the gauge number the thicker the wire and the more firmer coil), the number of turns /wraps of coils (the more turns the softer the coil), the diameter and the number of coils (the higher the diameter the softer the spring), You do not list the gauge /diameter for a the S&S While none of the spring units would be the week link within a mattress in terms of durability all the layers work together and the pocket coil is part of the general design of the mattress and in this case I’d tend to focus on how well the mattress “as a whole” matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences)

Concern with a silk blend fill pillow top:

Yes, quilted pillow tops generally will sag less, but any pillow top made of fibers used in a quilting machine will compress over time. Whether it is silk, polyester, wool, cotton, etc, etc. They are comfortable when you lie on the mattress but will break down quickly…these fibers are not of the quality of high-end foam or latex to be so close to your body. Not saying they don’t feel wonderful to many people, I am sure they do.

Thanks again
Sensei

I have another question this time regarding the Novosbed firm. The mattress layers and densities are:

Firm:

2" - 2.5lb / 22 IFD - 5th generation open-cell pneumatic memory foam

1" - 2.5lb / 22 IFD - 5th generation open-cell pneumatic memory foam

1" - 4 lb / 11 IFD - 5th-Generation high-density visco-elastic memory foam

7" - 1.75 lb / 38 IFD - Premium support foam

Am I missing something or are the two top layers significantly under the recommended foam density for durability for average and heavy BMIs?

I know Novosbed is a trusted member on this site so I’m curious why that is if they offer this particular model of mattress that uses low quality foam densities.

Hi Caesar,

You are correct the 3" of 2.5lb memory foam is lower than our durability guidelines. So we at TMU would be cautious about the long term durability of these memory foam components, assuming all you quoted information is correct.

Here’s the thing, I have felt many samples over the years of some great 2.5 and 3.0lb memory foam, and I know some of these mfgrs. make these beds and they feel great to a lot of people, but long term durability is sometimes sacrificed when trying to hit a certain cost and feel. It’s not a bad bed, but for high BMI’s TMU advises caution.

Novosbed is not listed as one of our trusted members.

Thanks,
Sensei

Hi again,

I was looking at the Novaform Serafina Pearl Firm mattress sold by Costco. The breakdown of the layers are:

2’’ Gel memory foam - 3lbs density
3’’ Air channel foam - 5lbs density
9’’ Support foam - 2lb density

The bottom two layers seem to be of high quality but I’m wondering about the first. I know TMU guidelines recommends against 3lbs or lower density for an inch or so of memory foam, so I’m wondering if the memory foam layer in this mattress would be low quality for someone with an average BMI/weight?

I’d also like to ask about this Springwall mattress:
https://www.costco.ca/Springwall-Natural-Luxury-27.9-cm-(11-in.)-King-Mattress.product.100412523.html

The layers listed are:

12.7 cm (5 in.) high-density bio support foam
7.6 cm (3 in.) high-density trizone bio plush comfort foam
5.1 cm (2 in.) natural gel latex (Talalay Latex)
2.5 cm (1 in.) MDI CocoBreeze Foam

Unfortunately the densities aren’t available. When I asked Springwall directly they told me, “the foam densities are high because this product is roll packed and it needs high density foam to bounce back”. I thought that was odd because there’s a lot of roll packed mattresses that use low foam density so that’s not necessarily true, and I thought Springwall had a reputation for being transparent about their mattresses. I also asked whether the mattress is firm or medium-firm because the product page I linked states both (description sates med-firm while the image states med).

They told me to ask the retailer if I wanted more info. Again, I found that odd since as the manufacturer they should be able to clarify that for me and indicate foam densities.

Anyways, would you or phoenix be able to speak to this mattress? I know in the past Phoenix has had contact with some managers from Springwall, so I thought maybe he would have some insight into this mattress.

Thanks.

Hi Cesar,

Thank you for the question. Regarding the Novaform Serafina mattress at Costco, it’s great to see that you are referencing the mattress durability guidelines. Well done on your knowledge and understanding of these guidelines. I took a look at the Costco Novaform Serafina Memory Foam mattress and the specifications listed on the website are as follows:

“Top layer: 5.1 cm (2 in.) layer of new ComfortLuxe® Gel-Pearl for cooling comfort and support
Middle layer: 7.6 cm (3 in.) layer of LURAcor™ foam which cradles less and pushes back more, for individualized weight distribution and support, and a firm feel
Bottom layer: 22.9 cm (9 in) layer of support foam offers durability and deep support”

Were you able to confirm from Novaform / Costco that the densities you mention as the exact densities? Generally speaking, the densities listed in your post for average BMI would be right on the border. Depending on the type of sleeper one is, very active sleepers tend to wear out mattresses faster than ones that move around less. The other factor for the “product” you listed would be the ILD/IFD’s of the 5lb and 3lb comfort layers. Of course, one’s budget comes into play here also, for some people they are ok with

Regarding the Springwall product, all of the Costco links for this product are no longer listed. Also the same issue for the Springwall website. Neither site lists Natural Luxury 11 inch product anymore, so it’s difficult to make any specific judgments.

You are correct that many lower density foams do bounce back, but I can’t fault Springwall for touting the use of high-density foam for durability. Maybe they are trying too hard to link this to roll packing mattresses, but it seems like it’s one of those things people would say over the phone, almost like they have an answer to questions they think people are worried about.

Regarding the picture saying medium and the description saying medium - firm, it can be a little tricky as Costco does sign off on the photos, as it is the manufacturer that usually provides the marketing materials, but this could be an administrative error, unfortunate yes and unlikely in this case that they are trying to “pull one over” on consumers.

Thank you again and let us know if you have any updated information on the specs.

Phoenix

Hello :slight_smile:

I am having problems finding the right mattress and I just discovered this website. I am not sure I am posting at the right place…

A couple of years ago a bought a firm coil mattress on Costco’s website. At first it was fine but then it became too firm. I eventually bought a memory foam topper, but it was too hot, so I put a wool blanket and egg shells on top to make it cooler… it kinda worked and tolerated it for a couple of years but last fall I decided it was enough.

I bought the Endy mattress, it was kinda good, liked the feel of the mattress, no odor, but I felt pressure points under my hips and decided to try another mattress.

I tried the Silk and Snow. I still felt a bit of pressure points but less. I didn’t like the feel of the mattress (gel) and it still smelled strong even after a couple of weeks. I returned it.

Just got a Plush Sealy mattress (Sizemore) from Costco I like the feel of the mattress but it’s way too soft. It doesn’t support me and gives me lowerback aches. I will return it.

I think I might try the Novosbed medium or buy the same Sealy mattress but the firmer version. Just wondering if you have any input? I am a bit tired of this, the amount of info, reviews, websites… is overwhelming… it is so hard finding the right mattress.

I have a tendency to feel pressure points under my hips. I am a man, I live in Montreal, my bmi can range from 21 to 25 and I have a neck injury (if that changes anything).

I only tried mattresses in a box and Costco because I can return them without any fees and I actually avoided stores because sometimes you are limited to one exchange, need to pays fees and/or are forced to buy their expensive protectors.

Thanks for any help with this :slight_smile: