That makes perfect sense to me ā¦ and certainly solves my confusion
The base iChoice mattress is certainly good quality and has no obvious weak links. The only lower quality material in the comfort layers is the 1" of 1.35 lb polyfoam and this is under 2" of latex and is only an inch thick which is inside the guideline I would normally use of no more than around an inch or so of lower quality materials in the upper layers. The topper is also a high quality material (all Talalay latex). Other than quality though I would questioin its āvalueā ā¦ especially compared to the āmostly latexā mattresses they used to make. One person I talked with today believes the topper is the same ILD as the top layer in the Snowmass which was 24 ILD.
I also had a chance to talk with Mark at Midwest Bedding to today and spent about an hour on the phone (that went past his closing time). It was a great conversation and I was very impressed with what he had to say. He uses good quality materials in all his mattresses and has great value as well. He is an āold timeā manufacturer and what I call āmattress peopleā and will disclose all the information about the mattresses he makes. He also carries some larger brands to fill in any gaps in his lineups. Mostly makes what he calls low to moderate priced mattresses (that would be much higher priced in a mainstream outlet), mostly 2 sided mattresses, still used techniques like inner tufting of materials, and also makes some all Talalay latex mattresses as well (also with good quality/value). Also has a few memory foam mattresses that use higher density memory foam but like most long term manufacturers he uses memory foam with discretion. All in all they would certainly be one of the places I would include in my research anywhere within reasonable driving distance of Omaha. ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint 1: 404 | Denver Mattress Archived Footprint 2: midwestbedding.net
Thanks so very much! Great news on Midwest Bedding! I really appreciate your taking the time to call and talk with them and so glad your impression of their company is so favorable! I would not have known how to get that much information from a phone call or been able to assess it. (May I tell them how much I appreciated their willingness to take the time talk with you in depth?)
And way to go for getting an approximate answer on the iChoice latex topper ILD! I know itās not always a very helpful spec, but I was curious what level of softness it is since it felt better for my pressure points than anything else Iāve tried so far = every major brandās top lines and several lesser-knowns.
Looks like a trip to Omaha is in order nextājust as soon as I finish researching mattresses for kids & toppers on supportive mattresses, to cover all my bases.
Iām looking forward to your feedback when you go there ā¦ and thereās no problem in letting them know how much I appreciated their openness and the time they spent talking with me
Just went to Midwest Bedding in Omaha and tried his latex. Iād love your opinion on this:
Its is an 8" firm blended Talalay, forgot to ask what the blend is, will do thatā¦ with HR poly in the top quilting, $959 for a Queen set with foundation.
He let us try it with a 1" piece of soft Talalay on top, which he could adhere to the solid core when making the mattress for comfort. I doubled this & it felt even better. So with a 2" layer on top and on bottom (flippable), the cost would be about $1200.
(I might even think about 3", or a 3" separate topperā¦)
With it being a blend, does this sound like a good value to you, if it meets our PPP needs?
There were also some preference options on the foundationāhave to research that, too.
We really enjoyed talking with him, heās not a high-pressure sales person, he really knew his stuff & history & has been selling for 30 of the 60 some years Midwest Bedding has been in business in Omaha.
Blended Talalay would be a 30/70 blend with 30% natural rubber or NR and 70% synthetic rubber or SBR. It is a high quality material.
They are poured in molds taht are just under 6" and then cut to different layer thicknesses from there so the 8" mattress would probably have single 6" core and then a 2" layer on top of it (although it could have any combination that added up to 8").
It certainly is a good quality material and would be great value for a queen mattresses that uses 8" of blended Talalay latex or 12" with the softer layer on each side of the mattress
Mark said he thinks his Talalay blend has a higher natural content than synthetic but would have to find & check his specs to be sure of the %'s, but he says it is from Dunlopillo. Now, I have searched this online & in your mattress forums & found out about the company (US?) going bankrupt in 2007 & being bought & split up, & not all users of that name even make latex anymore, etc. Mark at Midwest Bedding said that his is European. (There were posters from Dunlopillo on his wall that could well have been pre-2007.)
So I plan on asking a little more about this when weāre up there today. Iām sure heād rather not disclose EVERY detail of his business, but the Dunlopillo thing makes me a little uneasy. However, he said that he gets it in one solid core ILD, but that it is manufactured with different sized holes on the edges & middle for a little more support, which I saw described in your article on latex. Any further thoughts you have on the Dunlopillo thing would be helpful.
I am also wondering now whether to have an inch or two of soft Talalay adhered to the firm Talalay mattress itself (both sides) or to get a separate 2 inch topper made (he said he could do this, too.). [OR one inch adhered to one side and a sep. 2 " topper, which would give me the option of 2", 3", or none. So many possibilities! :woohoo: ] Any quick thoughts on this?
As you mentioned, Dunlopillo no longer makes Talalay latex and is just a brand name. In North america the brand name is owned by latex International so Dunlopillo Talalay is Latex International Talalay and they make a blend which is about 30% NR and 70% SBR. They also make a version of Talalay that is 100% natural rubber (no synthetic) but it is more costly and less durable in softer versions.
Talalay Latex is made in 5.6" - 6" molds so an 8" core would probably be a thicker core with an additional 2" glued on top of it. There are no 8" molds. Regardless of whether it has the Dunlopillo name or the Latex International name ā¦ Talalay latex is a good quality material.
The design of a mattress really depends on how well it matches your needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and this is based on your own careful and objective testing. A topper has the advantage of being replaceable without replacing the entire mattress while if you use the same layer inside a mattress that is enclosed (and doesnāt have a zipper thatallows you to remove the foam) then itās more difficult to replace it. The thickness and the firmness level of the topper that was most suitable for you would depend on your personal testing for PPP and on the specifics of the mattress underneath it.
I would make sure that you can test any mattress/topper combination in person whenever possible because the design of the mattress will affect the feel of the topper and vice versa and itās always best to test the combination you will be sleeping on. If you do decide to choose a two sided mattress I would make it the same on both sides and this has advantages in terms of durability but it would also be more limited in terms of the design because itās not a good idea to use too much soft foam on the bottom of a mattress because it can affect support/alignment.
It can be a good idea to have a two sided mattress with firmer comfort layers and a topper on top so you can flip the base mattress (which should be the same on both sides) and use the topper on both sides. If a two sided mattress is different on each side then it may lose the benefit of being two sided because one side may be suitable for you but the other may not be.
Thanks for all your help! Thought Iād let you know how things have worked out for us so far; hope this is also helpful for anyone else looking for this info:
We did end up ordering a 2-sided latex from Mark at Midwest Bedding in Omaha. He was so helpfulāand patient, indulgent evenāin answering our many questions during both visits & several phone calls. He let us use a Queen-sized piece of soft Talalay to experiment with the comfort layer and showed me samples of the quilt/padding/covers and foundations he could use.
The mattress is a 6" firm Talalay, 1 piece as you noted, so the other 2" in the basic mattress are the quilting/cover on the top & bottom sides. We did go ahead with the 2" softer Talalay pieces on top and bottom of the mattress rather than a Topper. After much testing and discussion, we felt this would work best, probably mostly for Preference, but hopefully wonāt be too soft to affect support/alignment. I think the 2" will be firmer than the 1"doubled over that we tested, considering the properties (progressive resistance) of Latex you described in your article on Latex. We didnāt get a natural/synthetic blend % as he hadnāt contacted his rep yet, but he thought it was more natural than synthetic.
As I said before, Mark isnāt a high-pressure sales guy, but heās very knowledgeable-mattress people, as you say-- and willing to help, but also lets you figure out what is right for you. The store is a small older building with 20 or so floor models of several typesāno āSā brands at all. I probably wouldnāt have found or visited it if not for your emphasis on local retailers and inquiries with Mark at Midwest Bedding. So again THANK YOU!!!
We were also able to pick out an okay mattress for our pre-teen from Nebraska Furniture Mart (then we can get another āgoodā one in a few years) and have our iComfort exchange/refund process begun. Just have to wait for inspection of the iComfort when they pick it up upon delivery of hers. We did have a little fun with the sales reps there by asking specific questions. One asked if we wanted to know anything about what was in a mattress and when I asked what kind of foam he said, āOh, it could be anything, I donāt know.ā! Another told me that density really didnāt matter anymore, especially in the memory foam mattressesā¦!!! I had to bite my tongue . He didnāt stay with me very long after that. I felt like slipping several potential victims there a note with this web address on it. Or wearing a t-shirtāyou should sell some :lol:
So weāll get our new Latex in about 2 weeks and Iāll post a review when weāve had a few nights on it. And about how the NFM refund goes.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with Mark and Midwest Mattress. As you experienced ā¦ it makes a real difference when you are dealing with knowledgeable and experienced manufacturers that really do put your interests above their own.
Your āstoriesā about dealing with some of the salespeople is a very familiar one to members of this forum and Iāve seen more than my share of eyes roll (or people disappearing from sight) when I start asking some questions in some stores
I hope everything goes well with the refund.
Most importantly of all though ā¦ congratulations on your new mattress! You certainly made a great choice and Iām looking forward to your feedback when youāve had the chance to sleep on it.
I hope Iām posting this correctlyā¦and I also wish I had found this site a year ago.
My husband and I purchased a king iComfort Genius mattress in early September of 2012. As of September 2013, the darned thing just isnāt comfortable. The āsolidā feel is only found if one lies ācross-wiseā on the bed. Neither my back nor my disposition can handle that.
We went back to the store of purchase only to find they had stopped handling Serta products. Weāre going to file a warranty claim, but in reading the first few pages of this thread, I realize Iāve got a lot to learn about not only battling this situation to the end - hopefully a good ending - and figuring out which mattress Iām going to purchase in the near future.
I havenāt read thoroughly through the site yet - which Iām going to do - but any hints on handling the warranty issue would be greatly appreciated.
The warranty claim will be fairly straightforward. They will usually send an inspector to your home to measure the unweighted visible impressions in your mattress and if they are deeper than the warranty exclusion (which is .75" with the iComfort line) then you would have a valid warranty claim as long as none of the other warranty exclusions applied to you (such as any small stain on the mattress).
Unfortunately foam softening and the loss of comfort and support isnāt covered by mattress warranties so if the foam in your mattress has only softened and the visible impressions are less than the exclusion then there is little you will be able to do except have an inspector measure it again when the actual impressions have become deeper. Warranties have very little to do with the useful life of a mattress and are usually more about marketing than anything else (see post #174 here).
The problem with many mainstream mattresses is that lower quality foams in the comfort layers soften prematurely. In the case of the Genius there is 2" of āsupport foamā underneath the memory foam and while itās very firm ā¦ itās only 1.3 lb density which is a low quality material and is the āweak linkā of this mattress.
If you do get a warranty exchange it would be much better to choose a replacement that only had āan inch or soā or less lower quality materials in the comfort layers so that the risk of foam softening is less. Even the basic Insight model may be a better choice because it doesnāt have the lower quality polyfoam underneath the memory foam although the support layers under the memory foam are 1.5 lb density (medium quality/density) which I would also be cautious with if you are higher in weight. The Insight and a good quality topper (if it was too firm) would probably be a more durable choice than the Genius and some of their other models that also donāt have as much lower quality materials may also be a better choice although you would need to pay the extra and none of the Serta mattresses are very good value regardless of their quality.
The best place to start your research when you are looking for a new mattress is post #1 here which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines you will need to help you make the best possible choices. It will also help you avoid the worst ones including Serta and other major brands or any manufacturer that doesnāt disclose the quality of the materials they use in their mattresses so you can identify any potential weak link in the mattress before you purchase it.
Well, my husband and I have slowly been enjoying our own personal ālie in.ā Weāve started to visit a number of the places you listed on your site - thank you for that, by the way! And thanks to your extensive tutorial on support layers, comfort layers etc., I understand one heck of a lot more than I did before even though my head is still spinning.
But what do you do when you get to a location and find you like the beds. But you also find them a bit too soft and the individual wonāt give more information as to construction? Went to Flexus and met a charming gentleman who was not the owner. He readily told me the inches in each layer (two latex mattresses and 1 innerspring with latex), but when I asked about latex density and for information about the innersprings, I was told they didnāt give out that information.
Iām trying to educate myself and figure out what possible variation would make my cranky back happier. How in the heck am I going to be able to compare and understand what the heck I want?
I intend to try to reach the owner on Monday, butā¦?
HOWEVER, I was able to mention the words Dunlop and Talalay with confidence. Yippee!!
We also visited Melvin Custom last week and had a delightful visit. But Iād REALLY have to know what I want in density and construction before going again. But their card has been tucked into my wallet for future reference just in case since my husband is really āgetting into thisāā¦heās wondering if we should tear down the iComfort Genius and āreconstruct.ā
Uhā¦probably not the best idea in the world. But it might be better than the other one heās got. It goes something like:
F[nd another bed I like, place it on platform base and add sheets.
Take iComfort, strip off sheets.
Take a BIG can of black spray paint and write words on mattress to allow the world to have some sense of how we feel about this bed.
Place inscribed mattress in back of truck, take it to a major on-ramp on our busy 101 freeway.
Superglue and chain it to a large metal light pole.
In this position, it would allow several thousand consumers ādelightfulā reading material as theyāre waiting in line, inching their way up to the on-ramp. He wants to make sure we choose a ā2 cars per greenā on-ramp, to maximize exposure to the āmessage.ā
Latex density is not a āquality specā and has nothing to do with the quality of the material. Density is a quality spec that is relevant with polyfoam and memory foam. Your body and careful and objective testing will tell you whether a mattress design is suitable for your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). If a mattress is too soft (either in the comfort layers or the support layers) and compromises your alignment then I would look at a mattress where your alignment is better and the layers are firmer.
I would be surprised if they didnāt give you basic information about their innersprings (such as the type of spring they use and some of the basic specs). If you talk with Henry the owner they will probably provide you with this information although it wonāt be nearly as meaningful in terms of PPP as your own personal testing.
The most effective approach is to use your testing for deciding on which mattress provides the best PPP rather than ācomfort specsā and then make sure that all the layers are good quality (based on "quality specs) so that you are confident your mattress doesnāt have any āweak linksā in its construction in terms of durability and you can make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses.
Again ā¦ I would keep in mind that when you are testing a mattress locally that density is only important to know when you are looking at memory foam or polyfoam because the density of these types of foam is the single biggest factor in itās quality and durability. With latex the type and blend of the latex is the most important information that differentiates one type of latex from another and the density of latex is more closely connected to its softness/firmness.
Hi again, Phoenix! As Iām typing this Iām happily stretched out on my new, beautiful, comfortable latex mattress, and my back loves it!!!
I adore it so much so, that Iām dragging people I know in - especially if theyāve got back issues - to come and spend some time flat on their backs on my bed so they can also experience āa slice of heaven.ā
I really canāt express to you just what a change my sleep patterns have undergone since my mattress arrived about a week-and-a-half ago. Itās a joy to sleep through the night without waking up in pain every few hours. Iām still rehabbing the back, but I think Iām going to have an easier time of it now.
I went back and worked with Henry at Flexus. He took the time and trouble of putting up with my enormous amount of questions. He also spent I canāt tell you just how much time to change both the support and the comfort layers time-and-time-again in different combinations until we found one that was perfect.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with Flexus.
It seems that it took some doing but you were fortunate to be working with someone that was willing to go above and beyond to help you find your perfect mattress and itās great to see that you were so successful.
Iām thrilled that the site could help you and of course most of all ā¦ congratulations on your new mattress.
Phoenix
PS: I switched your post to a new thread so it would be easier to find for others who were considering visiting Henry and Flexus.
I was reading older post here where you were positive with the Europa model from IBC. Corsicana bought up IBC and now have a model my rep claims is the same as the previous one by IBC. Here is the specs Europa - The Ultimate Gel-Microcoil Hybrid Mattress
It features a quad micro coil system in the middle with the gel foam layer at the top. I was wondering if you had any information on the current model.
Just in case you havenāt read it yet ā¦ the first place I would start your research is the tutorial post here which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice.
While itās true that SleepInc (owned by the same owner as Corsicana) purchased most of the IBC assets after their bankruptcy (see here) ā¦ this doesnāt mean that their mattresses will be the same outside of recycling the name and itās always a good idea to make sure you do some careful and objective testing for PPP to make sure that the mattress is a good āmatchā for your body type and sleeping positions and to make sure you know the specifics of all the layers in the mattress so you can make sure there are no obvious weak links in the mattress. This would apply equally to when the mattresses in the IBC Europa line were available and when you are purchasing a mattress now. The brand name or the name of the model makes little difference because a mattress is only as good as its construction and the quality of the materials inside it regardless of the manufacturerās name on the cover and knowing the quality of all the layers and components so you can identify any weak links in the mattress and make more meaningful comparisons with other mattresses is an important part of any informed purchase.
The IBC Europa line had many mattresses including several versions of the Intrigue model which included two 3.5" microcoils and some 5 lb memory foam (see here as an example) vs the Corsicana Europa which has one 3.5" microcoil over a polyfoam base layer and with a 1" layer of memory foam and a 2" layer of polyfoam on top of it. The listing doesnāt include the quality/density of the polyfoam base layer or the polyfoam and gel memory foam layers on top of the microcoil (which are especially important in terms of the durability of the mattress) and I would want to know this before considering it. While the microcoil is a good quality component if the memory foam or polyfoam on top of it are lower density then they would be the weak link of the mattress and I would avoid it unless you can confirm the quality of the layers. I would use 4 lb density or higher as a minimum guideline for the gel memory foam and 1.8 lb density as a minimum guideline for the polyfoam. If only the 1" of gel memory foam is below the guidelines then it wouldnāt be as big an issue in terms of durability if the polyfoam was good quality/density.
Wow, great thread, glad I found it. My Wife and I are shopping for a new mattress and were reading that the Icomfort or the 10" gel serta mattress was a good bet. I guess it pays to research. We did try the Original Mattress Factory and their Latex offering actually wasnāt as comfy as their memory foam option.
Plus they use the cheap poly foam on top. The only place around me (Mentor, Ohio 44060) that sells what Iām finding to be good latex mattresses is naturalbedco but Iām reading that they are priced on the high side. My Wife will not allow me to buy without trying them out, so buying through the mail, sight unseen is not an option. ADMIN NOTE:Retired Website | Archived Footprint: naturalbedco.com/
Any opinion on the Original Mattress Factory? Thanks again.
Youāve probably seen this but some of the better options and possibilities Iām aware of in and around the Cleveland area are listed in post #2 here.
You can read more about Naturalbedco in post #3 here. They used to sell their own mattresses which had some very good value along with Savvy Rest which were more costly but Iām not sure if their own mattresses are still available (the page that listed them seems to be gone).
They also make some good quality and value mattresses including their new Serenity latex hybrid mattress. You can see some of my comments about it in post #3 here. The polyfoam they use in the support core is also a good quality material and itās also two sided (see post #3 here).
. He didnāt stay with me very long after that. I felt like slipping several potential victims there a note with this web address on it. Or wearing a t-shirtāyou should sell some :lol: