Trouble finding a mattress -- where to go from here?

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Stats:
I’m 6’3, 235lbs, and have a history of muscular issues with my lower back. I sleep on my side and back, but historically have always moved a lot in my sleep. It is also possible I have an atypical spinal curve, as my physical therapist said this to me when I was recovering from lumbo-sacral strain a few years ago–but it has never been medically diagnosed, and I’m not sure. I’m definitely picky when it comes to a mattress.

My wife is 5’4" and almost exclusively a side sleeper. She doesn’t move much, if at all, during the night and has no particular issues with her back etc… My wife is not as picky when it comes to mattresses, and fortunately we both seem to find similar things comfortable.

Intro:

My wife and I had been putting up with my old Full size Spring Air Back Supporter II Pillowtop for a few years after we got married, and this summer decided we needed to finally go up in size. We actually really liked the Spring Air–even though I’m sure the brand isn’t known for quality, but it was past its prime, sagging towards the middle, and just too small for two adults. After much research on sites like this and SLTD, it seemed like the best bet was to find a latex mattress–seemed like it was a better version of memory foam, which we both thought we would like. We also decided that since we were spending the money, we might as well spend it once and go up to King size.

Before buying a mattress, I did a lot of shopping online and thought about going with a Dreamfoam latex/foam hybrid off Amazon, based largely on reviews at SLTD. My wife didn’t like the idea of buying a mattress we couldn’t lay on though so we went to the stores. We started at Jordan’s Furniture, where they “diagnosed” us to need a softer mattress, which knowing my back issues, I didn’t really agree with. We tried half the store (innerspring, latex, and memory foam–we had to specifically ask to see the foam/latex), and the only mattress we really liked was a latex unit made by Prana and costing around $5k (I was gobstruck by the price). We researched Prana online when we got home, having never heard of them, and found few reviews–and almost all the reviews we found were negative–though it wasn’t clear they had latex. Our second shop was Gardner Mattress, a local manufacturer.

1st. Choice:
We bought a 100% talalay latex mattress (medium-firm–this is presently the least firm option) from Gardner Mattress in Salem, MA which neither of us were ultimately happy with, largely due to the firmness. I personally didn’t sleep much on this mattress at all–maybe a couple hours a night. I thought it would just take getting used to or breaking in, but after 3+ weeks, I still wasn’t sleeping. My wife did a bit better on it than I but also wasn’t happy. It was hard as a rock, and we couldn’t escape the feeling of sleeping “on top” of the mattress, and I felt there was something odd about the way the latex compressed that made my back feel stiff. I think at this point my wife suggested we try a topper, but I balked at the idea of paying a couple hundred for a topper to make our ~$3k mattress livable. The only thing we really loved was the space on a king bed.

2nd Choice:
We went back to Gardner Mattress, and explained the situation, and they showed us several other mattresses. We seemed to agree we needed something with more of a comfort layer, and the salesman said something to effect of “latex isn’t for everyone”. After a lot of trying, we decided to switch to a “hybrid” pocket coil mattress with 2" latex and 1" of visco foam on top. Gardner was great about this, refunding us the difference in price (~$650) and charging us only the $29 delivery fee to bring us the new mattress. Downside was as it’s all custom, we had to wait a couple weeks to get it as apparently it was a busy time.

Unfortunately, I basically knew the first day that this mattress wasn’t much better. I can actually get some sleep on it, but it’s still very firm, and I just feel like the top doesn’t contour to me enough. I need the good support underneath, but really need the top layer to conform to me and let me sink in a bit to get comfortable and feel supported. We’ve been on it for a few weeks and tried getting a mattress pad with a little memory foam in it to help, but unfortunately we got a pad, not a topper, and it’s not thick enough to make any real difference.

We went back to Gardner and they tried to be helpful but ultimately weren’t sure what else to show us. It seems “soft” isn’t really their wheelhouse, and firm, long lasting mattresses are really their focus. They indicated they could try to do something special for us, but depending how special it may not be returnable, and it would be hard to really test it before it was made. They are open to us trying another mattress or giving us a refund (less the $29 fee to pickup).

At this point we decided to go shopping again and have tried Macy’s and Sleepy’s, and after lying on a number of coil, hybrid, and foam beds feel pretty certain we feel the most comfortable on the hybrid type–typically pocket coil with some sort of latex/gel/foam hybrid on top. The trick seems to be just what that top layer is made of and how thick or firm it is, as many with those basic specs alone aren’t comfortable.

Our favorite bed so far is probably at Macy’s, and is the Serta iSeries Lavish Dream Firm Super Pillowtop. It seems to have a firm, but contouring and supportive “gel” memoryfoam on top of pocketed coils.

Sleepys our favorites were their version of essentially the same bed (I believe it was iSeries “Grandstand”), Kingsdown Sleeping Beauty Valencia, and just a bit behind, a Simmons Beautyrest Recharge Shakespeare Pillowtop. The salesman was pushing us towards the Kingsdown the most, but I’ve never heard of them and a few things he said made me suspect his intentions.

I came home last night after our trip to Sleepy’s (and a 2nd trip to Macy’s to recheck our previous favorite–still the leader) and did some research on Kingsdown (mixed bag) and as part of this ended up back at SLTD and here doing research again. The numbers of long term satisfaction on innerspring mattresses, particularly with pillowtop involved on SLTD is pretty scary, and I feel almost back to square one.

I don’t know where to go from here. My sleep has been pretty limited for about 2 months, I have a short window to return my 2nd bed from Gardner, and I’m afraid the big box brands won’t last (one of the reasons Gardner hinted at why they don’t do “soft”). I’m also scared a pillowtop bed that is new versus what you try in the store won’t feel the same, or will lose it’s feel progressively over time and not last.

I did come across one suggestion that has given me pause: getting a good latex or gel topper and combining it with a well made firm mattress to “build my own” pillow top. The idea being, you can replace the topper when it wears out and still have a good mattress underneath. When I read this aloud last night, I think my wife (who is pretty much sold on the iSeries at Macy’s / is done with shopping / suggested this previously) wanted to slap me. Nevertheless, the idea gives me pause. If you look at half the “hybrids” out there, they all pretty much have sewn a topper under the ticking to a innerspring mattress–it’s often not even a flush square edge.

Having seen the return policies of the big box places, and also wanting to have this all work out with Gardner after all we’ve gone through and how great they’ve been to deal with, I’m intrigued by the idea. I read the line “good quality firm mattress” and think “that’s what Gardner excels at”.

So I’m essentially looking for any input:

  1. Are any of the pillowtop beds we looked at going to be a good choice?
  2. Are there other local mattress companies that could potentially make a better quality pillowtop we should try?
  3. Are we better off going for the topper/firm mattress idea?
  4. Should we try to have Gardner build something special for us that I can’t lay on first/might not be returnable?
2

Hi gu_obos,

That’s a ton of excellent info. I’m sure Phoenix and others will offer a number of excellent suggestions too. For starters, make sure you’ve read the first post on how to evaluate a mattress. It sounds like you have, but in case not:

https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/how-to-look-for-and-find-the-best-mattress-for-you-read-first

Second, Phoenix just wrote this in another thread, and to quote him:

"Pressure relief and “comfort” is what you tend to feel when you first lie on a mattress and this comes mostly from the upper layers.

Support and alignment is what you tend to feel when you wake up in the morning either with or without back pain or discomfort. This is where the deeper layers can have a more significant effect.

Durability is all about how you feel on a mattress in a year or more down the road when lower quality materials have softened more rapidly."

I write that because you are shopping and experimenting, and so to determine which mattress is most suitable and will work for you, given 2 that haven’t worked, it’s important to determine if it’s been the support layers (seemingly less likely) or the comfort top layers which provide comfort and pressure relief.

Also, as Phoenix has often wrote, it is much easier to soften a mattress that’s too firm than to firm up a mattress that’s too soft. That’s largely because you can add a ‘topper’ (which is essentially a pillow top, as you considered- you can tell your wife not to slap you, it’s an excellent idea and the very purpose for adding them). Before deciding on a topper, which is all about adjusting the comfort layer, one needs to make sure that it’s actually the comfort layer that needs improvement, and not something about the support layer.

There are toppers in all varieties, ranging from value budget to premium pricing. They’re made of basically all the same materials you’d find in a mattress comfort layer, the common being memory foam, latex, polyfoam, wool, cotton, silk, gel, buckling gel, feathers, down, and no doubt others, all in a variety of thicknesses and firmness levels. They come both finished and unfinished (I.e. With fabric encasing them or not).

Others will no doubt comment on other questions you have.

3

Hi gu_obos,

I agree with dn that’s a ton of information I would also make very similar suggestions :slight_smile:

You can find some comments about the Prana mattresses in post #3 here and in this thread and a forum search on Prana (you can just click this) will bring up more about them as well.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with Gardner as well. Your experience certainly confirms once again that not only do they make good quality mattresses but that their service is great as well. I would also agree with dn’s comments that it’s much easier and effective to soften up a mattress that is too firm with a topper than it is to make a mattress that is too soft in the support layers or too soft and thick in the comfort layers any firmer because this involves removing and replacing foam rather than adding to it.

As you will read in the tutorial post that dn linked I wouldn’t even walk through the front door of either of these retailers becasue you won’t be able to find out the information you need to make an informed buying decision or make meaningful quality/value comparisons with other mattresses. Outside of careful and objective testing using the testing guidelines … the most important part of a mattress purchase is to make sure you know the specifics of the materials in any mattress you are considering and this isn’t generally information they are either willing or able to provide you. After an hour or two on this site reading the links in the tutorial post you will likely know more meaningful information about mattresses than the large majority of people who sell mattresses in the mainstream industry and the reasons why it’s best to avoid these types of retailers and their lack of meaningful knowledge about their mattresses will quickly become apparent.

I would be very cautious about using reviews as the basis of a purchase decision … they can led to some very unsutable choices (see post #13 here).

A mattress will tend to soften and break down from the top layers down and innersprings are a support layer which means they are not normally the weak link of a mattress. The problem is that most mainstream innerspring mattresses use lower quality foams and materials above the innersprings which are the reason that so many of them soften and break down more rapidly but this has nothing to do with the innerspring itself. Innersprings can make a very good choice for the support layer of a mattress but it’s always important to know the quality of all the materials and components in any mattress … innerspring or otherwise … so you can confirm the mattress doesn’t have any obvious weak links in the comfort layers especially. If you use lower quality materials above any support core (latex, innersprings, polyfoam, or otherwise) they will have the same problems.

The same holds true for pillowtops. The problem with most pillowtops today is not the pillowtop itself but the quality of the materials in the pillowtop. While it’s true that softer materials tend not to be as durable as firmer materials … if you have a pillowtop mattress that uses high quality materials in the pillowtop … whether it’s memory foam, polyfoam, or latex) … durability won’t be a significant issue. It’s always the quality of the materials in the mattress that is the most important part of durability. This is especially important in higher weight ranges which will soften and break down comfort materials faster than lower weights.

You would need to know the specifics of the layers in the mattress to assess this but I would avoid major brands where you won’t be able to find this information out and which tend to use lower quality materials in all their budget ranges compared to smaller independent manufacturers that either sell factory direct or through better sleep shops. Good quality materials make better and more durable mattresses … pillowtop or otherwise.

The better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the Boston area are listed in post #2 here (including Spindle Mattress which is one of the members of this site) and there are some links with feedback about many of them in post #2 here. You certainly have some very good options available to you.

This can certainly be a good option if you can test the topper and the mattress together. if you buy a mattress with the intention of adding a topper and haven’t tested the combination in person then you are introducing another variable that you can’t test in person until after you buy it and choosing the most suitable topper to go with a specific mattress that also matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) can be almost as difficult as choosing a mattress. You will also find that some mattresses have replaceable layers in a zip cover which allow you to customize or replace individual layers and some manufacturers will also make custom adjustments and layer replacements to their mattresses after a purchase and these can also be an important part of each person’s personal value equation.

This is a question that only you can answer based on your more detailed discussions with them and would depend on your confidence that you can “get it right” vs your risk tolerance.

Phoenix

4

After some discussion with Gardner Mattress and reading online, we’ve decided to try to get a topper and combine in it with something Gardner makes.

We fear going with a big brand bed we are rolling the dice over what we get and whether it will last/it’s feel will last.

Gardner unfortunately does not really make many toppers–just a 2" Talalay Latex, though he was able to bring out a piece of 3" thick visco foam to try lying on as well. The 2" didn’t feel thick enough, and my basic opinion of the latex hasn’t changed–it’s too bouncy and doesn’t conform enough to get the feel we want. The 3" visco foam was much closer to the feel we are looking for, but it was hard to consider that a true test, as it was a raw piece of foam (and a bit cold from being in the warehouse).

True to their high service form, Gardner Mattress assuaged my concerns about the 30 day return window, and said to find some toppers to bring down and test, and we’ll go from there.

Gardner Mattresses’s recommendation on toppers was latex or memory foam of not less than 4lb density, and suggested natural fibers like wool or cotton or lower density foams won’t last as long.

So now we are searching for toppers and I’ve started looking at “member” manufacturers who make them. From a feel standpoint, I think we need at least a 3" memory foam topper. My concerns with memory foam are mostly the heat trap effect. This initially led me to our first purchase of a latex mattress, but I am a bit gun-shy on latex due to how unhappy we’ve been with latex bedding in general.

I’ve liked some of the gel foam pillow top mattresses I’ve tried, but lying on it for a few minutes at a store is not really a conclusive test for the heat issue, and I’ve read some weird reviews about the gel pellets coming out of toppers. Otherwise they might seem the compromise.

Our original intent was to order a bunch of toppers and try them individually, and try them in layers (etc.) and find the magic mix next time we go to Gardner, but as I look more at toppers I’m concerned with that plan. It seems like many of the foam ones expand greatly when unboxed, and not everyone has a good return policy/affordable return shipping. Some offer exchanges with just return shipping, but that doesn’t really help if I want to try a few at once when picking my new mattress.

With no way of trying different density foam or ILD of latex that I know of locally, I’m not sure what choices to make–we are more or less blind. I believe the foam Gardner pulled out for me was 4lb, but from what I read density alone does not determine the feel. Does anyone have suggestions of places with good toppers that allow easy/cheap returns (not exchanges)?

I’m also nervous about committing to any one mattress topper as a thick layer, as I suspect we might need two layers to create a transition (heavy density foam layer/lower density or latex/foam), and no one seems to make anything that comes this way. Does anyone know of a brand that does that I’ve missed?

Should we be looking for any other types of topper beyond memory foam or latex?

I’ve also noticed there is no regularity about toppers coming with covers or not, and many are just a piece of raw foam. This seems weird to me–do people just put a normal cotton mattress pad on top of the topper or what?

5

Hi gu-obos,

Your process is a little different from the norm. The safest way to choose a mattress would normally be to test the exact mattress that works best for you or to test a mattress / topper combination that you plan to purchase or in some cases to add a topper after a mattress purchase if you end up making a choice that needs a little more softness than you thought when you were testing the mattress. It’s not nearly as common to buy a topper first and then try to match a mattress to the topper. I would think that there are enough mattresses that use comfort layers that are already in the thickness and firmness range that you prefer that this approach generally isn’t necessary.

If you do plan to take this approach though then I would just choose a topper that your research seems to indicate that you may like (based on the top layers of the mattresses you test) and then test mattress topper combinations until you find the mattress that works best with the topper you chose.

You may also want to consider testing some mattresses that use Dunlop which isn’t as “springy” as Talalay latex so you can decide if this would be a suitable choice for you.

I would tend to agree with this although it’s not so much that a natural fiber topper won’t last as long but that it will compress and become firmer as it packs down so the “feel” of a natural fiber topper won’t last as long as high quality foam even if the topper itself isn’t worn out. This will also depend to some degree on how the natural fiber topper is made.

In general terms memory foam tend to be warmer than other foam types but there are also other factors that combine together that can also affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress that can make a difference as much as the foam (see post #2 here). Gel memory foams may also be a little cooler than some memory foams. You can read more about gel memory foams and their effect on temperature in post #8 here and the posts it links to. The effect of the gel will depend on the type and amount of the gel that is added and this may not be possible to find out exactly so you would be dependent on the knowledge and experience of the manufacturer to tell you how their specific memory foams may compare to others in terms of sleeping temperature.

There are some other options available in the Boston area in the link I posted earlier that may give you the chance to test some different options and materials as well.

You may be making this more complex than it needs to be and you are almost in the realm of designing your own mattress. I would tend to keep things much more simple than considering combinations of mattresses and toppers where there is no way to predict how they will feel for you outside of your own experience.

In some cases yes but I think a cover is a good idea to protect the topper material from damage and/or oxidation.

Phoenix

6

Oh, am I over-complicating this? I’ve never heard that before. :wink:

We ended up purchasing a 3" 4lb gel memory foam topper to try, and tried it with our present mattress (Gardner’s pocket coil with 2" latex, 1" foam). We didn’t really feel like it solved the issue so it is probably going back.

The 4lb foam doesn’t seem supportive enough, and I suspect we need to go with a higher density foam. It’s soft when you first lay on it which gives you sort of a false positive, once you are on it for a few minutes you realize it is too soft and isn’t enough support.

I really wanted to find a gel topper to help with the heat issue of memory foam, but haven’t found anyone who does anything higher than 4lb. I looked at the buckling gel, but that is just way too expensive. So we are probably going to have to look at straight up foam and hope the heat isn’t a deal breaker!

So two more questions:
Select Foam has foam that looks normal, but states “gel infused”. It’s well above the normal price range for foam, does anyone have any feedback? http://www.selectfoam.com/cat-Toppers.html

4lb Foam seeming too soft has me confused, as I’m pretty sure the foam Gardner is using is 4lb foam, and the Gardner is not nearly as soft. I appreciate that foam will vary and density doesn’t tell you the whole story, but I am also wondering about something else…the foam topper I tried was just raw foam, whereas the Gardner mattress with just foam on top of coils is encased in ticking, has a fire layer, etc…Is it possible that the ticking and whatnot on the finished mattress is just too thick and memory foam in a Gardner mattress just doesn’t feel like normal foam because it’s not getting enough heat to melt and conform?

7

Hi gu-obos,

I would keep in mind that there are three types of foam (polyfoam, memory foam, and latex foam) and each one has its own density range. You can read more about some of the characteristics of the different types of gel foams (including gel memory foam) in post #2 here and the links it includes.

There are many factors besides density that can affect the softness, feel, and performance of memory foam (see post #9 here and post #8 here). While it’s true that higher density memory foams as a group are usually firmer than lower density memory foams … there are many other ways to make memory foam softer or firmer. The thickness of the memory foam layer will also have a significant effect on softness and how much you will feel the firmness of the layers below the memory foam. For example a mattress with 1" or 2" of a certain memory foam over a firm support core will be considerably firmer than the same support core that has 3" or 4" of the same memory foam above it. Other factors such as temperature and humidity and the response time and temperature sensitivity that has been formulated into the foam will also have a significant effect on how firm a specific memory foam feels. As you also mentioned any layers or materials over the memory foam will also affect it’s feel and performance and how much heat reaches the memory foam. All of these are part of how different mattresses are designed to have a different feel and performance so they are suitable for the needs and preferences of different people.

Density is a good way to compare the durability of different memory foams but it’s not necessarily a good way to compare how they may feel or perform because there are many variations between the properties of memory foam of the same density.

Phoenix

8

We now have tried both a Dreamfoam 4lb Gel 3" topper, and a Dreamfoam 5lb foam 3" topper. The 5lb foam definitely seems more like what we want, and we are using this with our current mattress. It’s not perfect, but helps.

Interestingly, doing the math based on stated dimensions/weight, the 4lb Gel foam topper is just over 3lb, and the 5lb foam is about 4 1/4. Is this normal?

We also talked to Gardner again and he suggested something to try was to switch to a box spring that has some give in it–we currently have a foundation. We went down to try this, but they only had a twin like ours and it was hard to notice it being anything but springier.

9

Hi gu_obos,

It would depend on whether the listed weight was accurate (they are often approximations or dimensional weight). If you actually weigh it accurately when you receive it then it should be accurate within about a 10% range of variance.

This would have a bigger effect for most people with a thinner mattress than it would with a thicker mattress (depending also on body type and sleeping positions) but a box spring is often used under a thinner mattress (which tend to be firmer) or under an innerspring mattress (which will be more affected by a box spring underneath it) by some manufacturers for that very reason. If it “feels” springier then that usually also means that it’s probably a little softer as well (depending on the amount of movement it takes to notice the greater springiness) but each person may be different in how much they notice a change in pressure relief when they are actually lying on the mattress without movement.

Phoenix

10

I guess the thing we keep going back to is we’ve added a comfort layer (with the topper) to a new mattress that has a built in comfort layer.

Seems goofy, and like we should just be going to a more basic mattress if we are doing this…

11

Hi gu-obos,

All mattresses or sleeping systems include a top section (or top few inches) that acts as a comfort layer or “zone”, a bottom section or “zone” that acts as a support layer or “zone” and a middle section or “zone” that acts as the transition between the two. Even a mattress that only has a single layer has a “comfort layer” although in this case it’s not a separate layer but the top few inches of the mattress (see post #2 here). The terminology of “comfort layer” is really for ease of reference in other words and the comfort zone (the depth of the pressure relieving cradle) may not be the same as any of the actual layers. The difference between different “comfort zones” is in the type of materials, the softness, and the thickness of different types or combinations of “comfort layers” regardless of whether they are inside or outside the mattress or are even a pillowtop which is basically a topper that is attached to the mattress (and can’t be removed).

The two main functions of a mattress or sleeping system are support/alignment and comfort/pressure relief and everything after this is really a preference. It really makes no difference if a sleeping system includes a functional box spring, a mattress, or a topper, or any combination of the three as long as the combination used in the sleeping system is suitable for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences).

Using different combinations of components and materials is how a mattress is “matched” to different body types, sleeping styles, and preferences and the end result is always more important than the combination that creates it.

A mattress / topper combination can also have advantages over the exact same layers inside the mattress cover (where the same material that is used in the topper is inside the cover instead of being a separate layer on top) because it can be changed or replaced without having to replace the entire mattress if your needs and preferences change over time or if the top layer of your sleeping system softens or breaks down sooner than the rest of the mattress (and a mattress will usually soften and break down from the top down). A topper will also extend the life of the layers below it because it will absorb most of the compression forces when you sleep on the mattress.

The challenge of course is choosing a topper that in combination with your specific mattress is the most suitable combination in terms of PPP because choosing a topper that works with a particular mattress can be almost as difficult as choosing a mattress if you cant test the specific combination in person. Many manufacturers even design their sleeping systems as a mattress/topper combination because of some of the advantages of using a more “modular” design.

Phoenix