Purchased an IComfort Savant. Mistake?

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
1

Dear Phoenix:

I just found your site after purchasing an IComfort Savant. It was literally just delivered to me a couple of days ago and I wonder if I made a mistake. I was led to the web, where I found you, because I think the bed, or my old pillow with the new bed, may be the giving me a soar neck and shoulder sensation, but I’m not sure. Also, the fumes this thing has released are significant and remain in my bedroom and the bed was delivered 3 days ago. On the upside, something is happening during my sleep, although I don’t know quite what yet, but I think that I’m sleeping through the night without the constant tossing and turning in search of comfort.

I read your do’s and don’ts as well as your 411 on memory foam. I purchased this bed on the first day of shopping, although I was not pressured at all into buying it by the small retailer/bed manufacturer (craigs beds) where I purchased this mattress.

I was looking for a bed that would offer lower back support and that would relieve pressure. This is my first big bed purchase ever and I was hugely overwhelmed by the process. Oh and as you know, I paid a pretty penny for it, close to 2K, an investment that I won’t be able to make again for a while.

I’m told that I can return this bed after 30 days.

Advise?

New York City

2

Hi worldastage,

The potential “good news” about your purchase is that even lower quality/value materials such as those used in the iComfort can provide good PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) in a showroom and for some time after that. The problem is that lower quality materials will soften and degrade faster than more durable higher quality materials and the loss of comfort and support that this leads to is not covered by warranty (unless it includes impressions in the mattress which are deeper than the warranty exclusion which is not the norm). You can see more of my thoughts and some of the specifics of the iComfort lineup (including the savant) in post #11 here.

The “not so good” news is that there are many mattresses made by smaller independent or local manufacturers in the same or lower budget range that would provide you with similar PPP that use better quality materials, will last you much longer, and have better value.

I guess this would depend on what the details of their return policy are but from the site return policy information here it appears that their return policy only covers an exchange which means you would be limited to the mattresses they sell.

They do have a house brand which they design themselves and have manufactured for them and out of the mattresses they carry … I would consider these to be the best overall value. They list the quality and density of the foams they use (which is what all manufacturers should do) and IMO compare favorably to the iComfort mattresses. Their gel memory foam is a better quality “swirl” gel memory foam than the gel memory foam used in the iComfort, the “regular” memory foam is slightly lower density (4 lbs) but is deeper in the mattress (under the gel memory foam), and the polyfoam base layer is probably higher quality than the Serta as well and the price is also lower.

In my conversations with him … he is more knowledgeable and more service oriented than most retailers and is committed to providing the best quality and value he can inside of the brand limitations he has so at least you have purchased from a retailer with integrity.

Whether it s worth exchanging would depend on all the factors involved because you would be exchanging for a lower cost (probably better value) mattress but you wouldn’t be able to get a refund on the difference. It would also depend on how suitable the Savant is for your long term use and how much effect foam softening will have on your alignment (if you are on the edge of good alignment now then foam softening may take you over the edge more quickly) but if I did do an exchange it would be for one of the Summerfields. My tendency though now that you have bought the Savant would be to keep it for as long as it provides the comfort and support that you need rather than incur the cost of an exchange (unless it becomes obvious within the exchange period that the mattress wouldn’t be suitable for you in the long term) but when it comes time to replace it I would look next time at smaller local or independent brands with better quality and value.

Phoenix

3

Hi Worldastage,

I would also like to throw my hat into the ring on your question.

1.As far as the smell is concerned, it should go away after 3 to 5 days and I would like to say many new items today that are purchased usually come with an initial odor, whether it be a leather jacket, a new car, computer, furniture, clothing and even a new baby may have an initial smell that will go away. It’s also a sign that the item is brand new and not broken in or used.

  1. As far as icomfort is concerned, the mattress that you tried at that store may have been broken in from many people testing the same mattress over time. The manufacturers may lead people to believe that the mattresses do not need to be broken in but we find that they do . And the mattress will conform over the next two months with steady use. I believe that the store that you purchased it from has a 90
    day exchange policy which should be enough time to decide whether you like the mattress or not.

3.As far as quality is concerned, compared with many other premier brands that are offering similar products, the value I feel is high when comparing the cost of what other similar memory foam mattresses premier brands offer.

I think this mattress will be a big improvement over any other mattress you have purchased. There are many pieces of junk that are being sold today for two thousand dollars and more that are pieces of junk and inferior to the icomfort mattresses.

But where iComfort may fail as well as other brands is the misleading 25 year warranty. It leads people to believe that this will be just as comfortable in 25 years as the day you bought it. Yes it will look like a rectangle in 25 years but it probably won’t be as comfortable. I would say that it should be comfortable for 11 17 years and this will depend on the opinion of the user.

I am in the business and I base this on owning a memory foam product and hearing feedback from customers who own similar type mattress constructions that are looking for a second one in their home or vacation home.

Although the mattress may not be perfect it is far better than most mattresses that are being sold for more out there and should give you many years of comfort.

I hope this helps and a second perspective can never hurt.

CTF

4

Hi worldastage,

I just realized that I didn’t address one of your comments which is also related to CTF’s reply.

It is very common with a new mattress that you may need a new pillow … particularly if it is significantly softer or firmer than your old mattress. If you are sinking in more or less then the height of your pillow may need to change to accommodate a different “gap” between your head and the pillow. This can certainly lead to neck and shoulder issues. CTF is also correct that a new mattress needs some time to break in and there is also an adjustment period involved in any new sleeping surface. When I talked with Craig he also said that there was a 90 day exchange period even though this is different from the information on the site itself (which says 60 days). I would take at least 30 days to see if things are improving and if you have other pillows available to you I would experiment with this as well to make sure your head and neck are in good alignment on your new mattress.

Hi CTF (Craig),

Welcome to the Mattress Forum!. I enjoyed our conversation today.

Thanks for joining in this discussion and I share your viewpoint on your first two points and I know we agree on many other things about mattresses and the industry in general but I have to I have to strongly disagree with your third point …

The “premier” brands (assuming you are talking about Sealy, Simmons, Serta, Tempurpedic etc) are not a good basis for comparing the quality/value of any mattress because all of them have poor value when you compare them to what I consider to be true premier brands which are many of the smaller local or independent manufacturers that exist all around the country.

There is really no basis for saying that a mattress has good quality when they don’t disclose the quality of the foams they use inside it. Without this information … quality is just a “word” with no meaning because a mattress is only as good as the construction and quality of the materials inside it. In the case of the iComfort line … many of the materials are not good quality by any stretch of the imagination and really don’t belong in a mattress in this price range (see post #11 here for an analysis of the iComfort line). Any mattress can seem to be good quality if it’s compared to some of the worst in the industry. I prefer to compare them to the better value available to consumers and by this standard they don’t fare very well at all. Even your own Summerfield mattresses are better quality/value than the iComfort IMO :slight_smile:

In terms of your estimated lifespan … this is also wildly optimistic in my opinion. Much better quality mattresses that use better quality materials won’t last as long as the estimated lifespan you are assigning to the Savant and given the amount of low quality foams it contains that are subject to early softening … someone may be lucky if they lasted half as long as your estimate with good comfort and support.

Warranties are more of a marketing tool than something meaningful to consumers (see post #174 here with some thoughts about warranties) and with this amount of lower density foams in the mattress that will soften and degrade much faster than higher quality materials … there is just no way that an estimated lifespan that long would make sense or be realistic for most people. The loss of comfort and support is the real reason people need to replace a mattress not impressions that exceed the warranty exclusions and this isn’t covered by any warranty.

This may be true and there is a lot of low quality “junk” that is being sold today but it’s also far worse than a lot of better quality mattresses that are widely available to consumers that know where to look.

While we agree on many things … the quality or value of major brand mattresses isn’t one of them and I much prefer to look at the quality of the materials in a mattress to make these kind of assessments. On this basis … the iComfort doesn’t compare well at all.

Phoenix

5

Hi Phoenix,

If you look at my specific wording you will agree on many of the things I said. And yes I am 100% sure that there are better mattresses for less out there or just as good but the problem is yes that some of the brands do not share the exact components of their mattresses but at the same time there are some smaller guys out there that exaggerate the quality of their mattresses and or miss quote what is inside their mattress…Also even if a consumer sees a similar mattresss online that looks almost the same on paper it may have a different feel than the mattress that they saw under a different brand. So it is not so easy for people to go with lesser known brands either as no matter what they will have to do their homework. At the same time if a consumer finds a smaller brand company that they like and feel comfortable with the company I more than encourage the people to give it a shot.

Supporting smaller brands is good for the mattress business and good for any industry in America. Competition is what will keep products and services getting better in the future. When the competition and options are taken off the table, look out as once the competition is gone the focus will become making a product that allows a company to make more profit when the true focus of any business should be to make the best product that will want to make people talk to their friends about it.
So I definitely support customers looking at smaller customer oriented mattress brands but at the same time I am not ready to discount all of the mattresses that the better known brands produce as well.

I believe whole heartedly of what I wrote based on experience and hearing daily why people don’t like their mattress and the kind that they had and for how long they had them for. It’s my educated opinion. But I don’t want to make a 20 year bet on who is right because I really don’t want 10 or 20 years to fly by :slight_smile:

That being said I think you are providing a great service and this site is great resource for getting a highly educated opinion.

I would suggest to consumers to take their time when shopping for a mattress as the extra time they spend in trying and researching for their next mattress purchase will pay dividends for many years to come. Once the customer finally makes a decision on what they want then they should really do their homework to buy their mattress at the best prices they can from a store that has a solid track record.

Best Regards,

CTF

6

Hi Craig,

Yes … we do agree on many of the things you said … but not your last point. Our frame of reference is different and you are comparing the iComfort to the worst in the industry and I prefer to compare them to the many better options that are available.

Of course there are “smaller guys” that are not ethical (many of them are identified on this site). The fact remains though that if you compare the materials in a mattress regardless of who you buy from that your odds of buying better quality and value increase dramatically and the exceptions don’t change the principle.

I don’t support smaller brands because they are smaller. If you read the site you will see that there are some larger brands that I have suggested on a mattress by mattress basis for a local purchase as well. It’s the materials that count … no matter who you buy from. It’s just that there are more smaller brands that are making better mattresses than there are larger ones. This is not a blanket statement or endorsement of smaller manufacturers … it’s always the materials and the value of a mattress that counts.

You may not be ready to discount the larger brands … but until they disclose what is in their mattresses I certainly am. If you find a major brand mattress that on a materials basis is better value than another mattress I would be the first to suggest it … again based on the quality and value of the materials. The problem is that they don’t disclose any really meaningful information in most cases and replace real facts with proprietary gobbledygook. If you support this lack of transparency or are ok with consumers making a blind purchase … then so be it … but on this point we won’t agree and the site is dedicated to giving people the means and tools to make meaningful quality and value comparisons between mattresses. If a manufacturer or retailer can’t or won’t tell a consumer what is in a mattress they sell … no matter who makes it large or small … then I will continue to suggest that consumers don’t consider it as a reasonable option.

A consumer can take all the time they want and do all the research and homework they are able to but if they can’t find out the materials in the mattress … all of their time and research is wasted and all they have learned are the marketing stories attached to the mattress. In other words they are only buying a story (and an expensive one) instead of a mattress.

Thanks for the kind words :slight_smile: … but without the ability to find out the quality of the materials in a mattress … all the education and research in the world is meaningless and only leads to consumers trying to decide who tells the better story in the absence of any meaningful facts which can help them make good decisions.

Phoenix

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Hi Phoenix,

Last word on this subject from me promise :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

I really truly consider myself unbiased and open minded and I have A LOT to learn myself but I always try to see the other side and other viewpoint on things.

Why a manufacturer may not want to show the densities of foams or exact make ups of their mattresses.

  1. Could be to mislead the public on the true value of the product?

  2. They can be also be trying to protect their research and development efforts?

Even I get frustrated when we work on a unique idea for months and then finally after tons of work we release it to the public only to find weeks later that competitors have literally copied our work that we spent hours upon hours of developing.

It costs money, man hours, legal costs and other consulting costs to bring an idea through to fruition.

In a market place where everyone tries to copy one another and then one up each other hopefully…
Could a manufacturer not list certain aspects of their materials, like manufactuerer made it? Or the exact density of certain foams to protect their work from easily being copied? The competition buys each others mattresses and if they list everything than why would the competition have to go through the trouble of buying each others beds.

What I am saying could another possibility be that the manufacturers are trying to protect their hard work. Before a manufacturer finally brings a product to market they invest an untold amount of money.

I find in business that the leaders are often copied from companies that their only R&D costs are to copy someone elses product. Without doing the true research, without doing comfort tests and comfort polls.

I am not a billionaire and I do not have the funds to buy thousands of mattresses and have them tested by independent unbiased labs and until then, I have to keep an open mind and judge a product by what the manufacturer reveals is in the product , information that is out there about the materials that can be supplied by people such as yourself, component manufacturers and actual customer feedback.

I personally have the big picture in mind and I want people to get the best value that they can get. But at the same time I always try to look at both sides.

So I am all for if people can find a great quality product for less…Today businesses that are large have enough money to spend on marketing to simply say they are the best and pay millions of dollars getting people to trust them without backing their advertised promises.

So I am really appreciative of alternative sources of information from sites like yours. I appreciate all of the effort and love that you have put into the information on this site. I believe as your site continues to get more popular that your continued efforts may very well influence the manufacturers in the mattress field to be more honest and forth right with information and encourage them to make better products in the future.

Thanks For Your Time And I will definitely try to post here in the future if I feel I can bring any added value to a subject.

Best Regards,

CTF

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Hi CTF,

I have no idea why you are being an apologist for some of the worst practices in the industry … especially when you yourself are committed to being open and transparent about the mattresses you design.

Revealing the quality/density of the foam in a mattress has nothing to do with proprietary information because the properties and response of the foam along with things like ILD can vary widely with the same density of foam … and they don’t even have to reveal their source. This just doesn’t hold water. We talked about this on our call and foam density is just not a spec that can be used to duplicate a mattress by itself. Besides all of this … it never makes sense to withhold information that can be found out anyway.

The “sides” of this discussion is between either buying a mattress where the quality and value of the mattress and materials are either inferior or unknown vs buying a mattress where the quality and value of the mattress and materials is known and can be meaningfully compared to other mattresses. If you believe that both of these “sides” are equally legitimate then we have very different opinions. I don’t know of any consumer that would willingly buy an inferior lower value product if they knew how to tell the difference. While all your thoughts about developing a product and research and development are legitimate … building a mattress isn’t rocket science and I don’t believe there is any legitimate argument that refusing to disclose information that is the only way for a consumer to know the quality of a product they are buying is justified.

We both know why this information isn’t made available by the larger manufacturers and it has everything to do with marketing and eliminating competition and not wanting consumers to make meaningful comparisons with other manufacturers and mattresses. I know you have been in the industry for long enough to know this (and the many other issues that have led to the deterioration of the industry itself). They even have multiple names for the same mattress for the same reason (at the insistence of the larger retailers who don’t want to compete). I just don’t understand how you can possibly defend these practices outside of wanting to profit from them. I really thought you would understand this and not spend so much time defending these types of practices.

Phoenix

9

Hi Phoenix,

People have opinions on things in life and just because someone may think differently sometimes does not make their opinion wrong.

I do agree on more than enough of what you show and I believe that this site presents a great wealth of information but it does not mean I agree on everything.

But I also look at the other side…Like Stores Like Best Buy, they showcase thousands of products and yet they may be going out of business due to how many people browse their store and by on Amazon.(And I don’t look at Best Buy as a sweet innocent victim as they put many store under themselves)

The reason why brands may name a mattress with a different name is not so much to overcharge the public but to protect their stores.

If there are no brick and mortar stores to try mattresses out in there is no internet business. If they do not protect the brand value from large companies that come in and sell cheaply and then only to watch other businesses go under and then later on once the competition is squashed watch the store then raise their prices …That would not be good either.

We do alot of business on the internet so our strategy is geared more for volume but at the same time I don’t bash the traditional brick and mortar stores because I understand the high cost of selling a mattress for a traditional store.

Some stores are in a small town where there simply is not enough customers and the only way to stay in business is to work on certain margins. The stores are providing a value to the public just by being there and there is a cost to that service.

If the only way to buy a mattress is online then people will not have the benefit of testing the mattress out.

So as a business owner that has an online presence I am offering a way for people to get truer value for their money but I do understand the other side.

It will be up to the customer to decide whether to buy locally or online and there is more than enough information and blogs for the determined shopper to figure out the wendy is the same as the tori else where.

Phoenix, I believe you are doing a great job and I agree on more than enough…AND YOU ARE DOING AN AWESOME JOB!!! But sometimes people may disagree …It does not make one person bad…Different opinions bring value to any topic.

10

Hi Craig,

I completely agree with this … but it’s also important to recognize the difference between opinions and facts (or opinions about facts) :slight_smile:

While I agree with many of your points of view … the essence of our discussion boils down to …

Should a consumer consider buying a mattress where the quality of the materials inside it are not disclosed?

Is there any reasonable basis for assessing the quality of a mattress without knowing the quality of the materials in it?

My opinion in both cases is no

It seems that your opinion is yes to both 1 and 2 … at least in some cases.

To me this has nothing to do with online or brick and mortar sales or disclosing proprietary information or research but simply about disclosing the quality of the materials in a mattress so that consumers can make reasonable comparisons and informed buying decisions.

I do understand the value of a “name brand” for bringing traffic to a store because of the nature of the current market and the tendency of consumers to follow advertising or branding information because they don’t know any better but I also know that there are many alternatives to this and there are many retailers across the country who are doing very well without having name brands on their floor (and who refuse to carry them because they can’t justify selling them to their customers once they know their real value no matter how much business it brings them).

So I understand your points and the pressures of the industry for a retailer and I also understand the temptation for a retailer to sell major brands that don’t disclose any meaningful information about their mattresses. From a consumer point of view though, if there are better alternatives in terms of quality and value (and there clearly are hundreds of them across the country) … then I can’t imagine why any consumer would knowingly choose to buy a lesser quality and value mattress once they know how to make meaningful comparisons and if better alternatives that are just as suitable are available. Once they know how to tell the difference … what they buy after that can be an educated decision based on factual information instead of a “blind” purchase based on opinions that can’t be supported. At the very least a salesperson selling a mattress where they don’t know what’s in it should be telling their customers “I have no idea about the quality or value of this mattress” … because they don’t.

Phoenix

11

Dear Phoenix:

Thank you, a million times, for your thorough response to my query. I’ve followed your conversation and am impressed by the integrity of the exchange between you and CTF and your insistence that we interrogate and not let off the hook those companies that refuse to be transparent about the materials used in their product.

I read the email you suggested on the IComfort line up. It is a lot of technical information to absorb… and I’m accustomed to assimilating volumes of information.

A question that was raised, but not answered, in post number 11 concerns whether foam mattresses meet the requisites for proper alignment. I think you suggest, in that post, that going with foam is a risk on that score.

So my question is, which type of mattress, in your opinion, gets the best scores on alignment. Ultimately that is what I’m looking for as I have recurrent lower back problems.

Thank you again for this incredible service. I wish I had found you earlier.

Worldastage

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Hi worldastage,

[quote]A question that was raised, but not answered, in post number 11 concerns whether foam mattresses meet the requisites for proper alignment. I think you suggest, in that post, that going with foam is a risk on that score.

So my question is, which type of mattress, in your opinion, gets the best scores on alignment. Ultimately that is what I’m looking for as I have recurrent lower back problems.[/quote]

There are two essential “needs” for every mattress which is pressure relief and alignment/support. These specific needs are all about how well the specific design of a mattress “matches” each individual body type and combination of sleeping positions and the sensitivity of each individual rather than being inherent to the types of materials or components it uses. This is why I don’t agree with so many of the statements that are made throughout the industry (usually made by people who are selling a specific type of mattress) that “this type of mattress is better than that type of mattress” because of “this or that”. Any “type” of mattress with a combination of layers and/or components that matches the needs of a specific person can provide good pressure relief and alignment regardless of the type of materials or components used.

Beyond these specific needs … everything else is a matter of preferences. Preferences (such as those listed here) can be just as important a part of a mattress purchase and the quality of sleep as the basic “needs” but they get to similar pressure relief and alignment end result with different “feels” and performance characteristics. Some of the most knowledgeable people I know who could sleep on any type of mattress they choose will sleep on an innerspring/latex hybrid, some will choose a memory foam mattress (which is usually “all foam” but of a specific type), and some will choose an all latex mattress (which is also “all foam” but of a different type again) or any other combination that they may prefer. The common factor is that no mater what combination of materials and components they choose … they will choose the best quality available of that particular material and they will make sure that the design of their mattress matches their specific needs and preferences. The quality of a specific material (whether it is one of the three types of foam or any other mattress material or component) determines how long the performance and “feel” of the mattress will last. You can’t “feel” quality in other words because low quality and higher quality materials of the same type or category can feel and perform in the same way initially. This is similar to how a piece of furniture made of particle board and veneer may perform the same function as the same piece of furniture made of real wood … but it won’t generally last as long or be as durable and I certainly wouldn’t want to pay “real wood” prices for particle board.

So my own approach is to first become familiar with the feel and performance of different materials and test to see which types of materials each person prefers and then to make sure you have the best possible design and quality of those specific materials that are available in your budget range and that match your specific and individual needs and preferences. There is no “bad” material or “bad type of mattress” IMO … only better and worse quality and value choices and better and worse designs (for that specific person) no matter which design or combination of materials and components you may prefer.

Phoenix