Looking for adjustable bed for ailing father with dialysis

Hi all,

Wonderful information from so many here, in particular Phoenix who’s invaluable experience and recommendations are helping so much with finding an adjustable bed for my father in home care. My dad sleeps on his right side 60%, which positions his abdominal catheter in an ideal location for drains and fills of dialysate (dialysis solution). However, he also suffers from edema in his feet and needs to raise his feet as he sleeps on his back (40% of the time). He never sleeps on his stomach, and so I thought an adjustable bed would be perfect since I could situate it in our living room and he can be raised up to watch TV, read a book and eat a snack.

Like many, early on I was SO convincingly sold on the L&P adjustable foundations (esp. S-Cape) that it was a near slam dunk purchase; I just needed to find a local retailer who had one in stock. But after reading the greater praise for the Reverie Deluxe and Ergo 400 models, I’ve changed my mind. My understanding is that the Reverie Deluxe has all the features offered by the L&P S-cape and Ergo 400, but it does them better, yes? So if I may, I’d like to outline what my plan of attack might be:

  1. buy a Reverie Deluxe foundation online, likely from olejostores.com , adjustablebeds.org or whoever has it the cheapest.
  2. buy a LATEX mattress, firm (since my dad prefers firm mattresses) from a non-brand via online or local business

Does anyone know of a terrific local Austin business from which I can purchase a good latex bed? I’d really appreciate any recommendations.

BTW, does the Reverie Deluxe NOT have programmable positions? I know the Leggett & Pratt S-cape does. Such a feature would make it easier to immediately put my father in a preset position (head and feet) that’s ideal for him.

I would love any criticism and/or suggestions from anyone who owns or is looking to purchase an adjustable bed. Such information really is hard to find online.


Hi austinsoul2012,

Post #2 here has the better Austin options and I would say Bob at SleepWorld qualifies as “terrific” in terms of quality, value, and his knowledge and commitment to his customers. His latex mattress selection is also great.

The Reverie is the same or better in most of its functions and the price is usually less so together the “value” would normally be better (depending on the price that was available of course). The head raises a little higher and the massage functions were a little better in my testing.

The Reverie has 2 “set” positions which are zero gravity, reading/working (head high with very slight leg elevation) in addition to flat. Reverie has also released (Note: Te product page deleted this is the url: footprint //news.yahoo.com/luxury-bedding-innovator-reverie-unveils-technology-design-concepts-200309579.html) a new remote control for the Deluxe which has 3 pre-set positions and 2 programmable positions and sells for $150.

The Ergomotion 400 has 1 set position which is zero gravity and flat.

The L&P S-Cape (equivalent to the Reverie deluxe and the Ergomotion 400) has 3 set positions which is zero gravity, reading/working, and leg elevation as well as a “capture” button which will “capture” a position and a function (if it’s operation) and then a second button will recall this combination, The combination of pre-sets and the capture button is one place where the L&P Scape is slightly superior (at least without the Reverie upgrade).

The top L&P model the Prodigy has several features that are not available on the others but is significantly more expensive as well.

  • It has 4 settings to capture any combination of position and function. Factory pre-sets are 1 for sleep (flat) and 3 for snore (head elevated 7 degrees) but all 4 can be programmed. There is also a separate flat button.

  • It has a 30 minute or 60 minute sleep timer which can use any of the pre-sets and then return automatically to the 1 (sleep) position.

It has an LED display for time or time remaining on the sleep timer.

It has an wakeup alarm which can use an alarm or a wave massage.

So if these functions are important then the L&P may be worth the extra price.

Hope this helps


Thank you Phoenix; really appreciate the long reply. A few days ago, I did browse through Bob Guerin’s Sleepworld site and thought it would be ideal to purchase from a local business, and I’ll seriously consider getting a latex mattress from him. I did notice a few poor reviews on Yelp that complained about him and his rather direct, curt treatment of customers, but not many could fault his product.

BTW Phoenix, is there a particular online retailer that you favor for adjustable bed foundations? I mentioned olejostores and adjustablebeds.org, but perhaps you’ve had a great experience elsewhere? I would be tempted to buy local to support businesses here and for the locality of warranty support, but the prices do seem rather prohibitive (L&P only at sleepworld, and ergo-tempurpedic at urbanmattress).

The need for an adjustable bed now comes even more urgent, as my father has been stubbornly sleeping on a too-soft, lumpy microfiber sofa for the past 4 years, and now after all the cumulative discomfort and constant pain, he’s finally agreed to try something better. It’s been a constant fight, believe me. I’ve gotta get the ball rolling asap before he changes his mind and I’m so grateful for the wealth of info here. :slight_smile:

Hi austinsoul2012,

Bob does have some strong opinions … but on the other hand he’s usually right when it comes to mattresses :). I was talking to a manufacturer in Houston at one point who told me that Bob knows more about latex than anyone he knows (which was the reason I originally called him). I kind of like people who are more direct and I’ve enjoyed my conversations with him although I know that some people have more difficulty with people who are more direct. There are a lot of “old timers” who make mattresses and aren’t always as diplomatic as they could be. Having said all that … there is some very good value on his site. His prices for his talalay latex mattresses in particular are very good.

Olejo (and their many other sites including adjustablebeds.org) are among my pricing reference points for adjustable beds (see post #6 here). I have also talked with them (mostly Daniel but the others as well) on many occasions and their service is great (NOTE: this may have changed since they were purchased by Mattress Firm). I bought my own adjustable bed (Reverie Deluxe) there. When it was delivered there was some shipping damage and they had had a new one out in record time and with no hoops to jump through. Their prices are generally among the best on the web and they also have a very wide selection of adjustables from different manufacturers.


Hi…your tips provided here are good for buying mattresses but I think you should try for foam mattresses. These are very comfortable and relaxing. I am sure you gonna love it. Just give it a try.

Hi Phoenix and all,

Thanks for the advice on visiting SleepWorld in Austin, TX; my parents and I visited with Mr. Guerin and he was a terrific guy to chat with. It was a very pleasant, informative, no-pressure-to=buy experience! I also appreciated his direct approach with us too, which he smilingly said comes from his upbringing in New York (Bronx). You can tell he really knows his products and takes pride in his work. I think Mr. Guerin found it amusing that, thanks to all the research I’ve gathered over here, I started quickly spouting facts about the adjustable bed foudations and latex grades trying to convince my father about the benefits of adjustable beds. Mr. Guerin laughed a bit and chided me, saying “hey, let me be the salesperson here, will ya?” We all had a good laugh about that and of course I let him do the selling. :slight_smile:

Mr. G was straight up about everything, including what we initially thought were rather high costs. I kinda knew that was going to be the case, and so when my mom and dad’s jaws dropped at the prices, I nodded my head to them, reassuringly. I think my parents are still remembering previous days of getting cheap coil mattresses from the local Sears store, hehe.

Anyways, let’s get right to the products and testing…

The first bed my dad tried was a twin XL latex mattress consisting of 9-inches of dunlap on an L&P S-cape, which Mr. G described as being organic/organic. It was firm, comfortable for dad, and you could see the care taken in its manufacture. You could also see it in it’s price: $2,000! The S-cape base/foundation itself was $900 (which is, IMO, very competitive with olejostore prices), but the mattress, wow. That comes to $2,900 as a set. Mr. G did mention that, since my dad needs an adjustable bed for his dialysis treatments, a prescription from his nephrologist would make the purchase tax-free (at least in TX), so that helps a bit. But still, $2,000 for a twin XL (not incl. base) seems a bit much.

Mr. G then showed us a second choice – another twin XL latex mattress with 6-inches of latex, this time a bit softer than the first one. I’m not sure what kind of latex was in it, except that it was not organic but also seemed quite good. It came to $1,000 , which was more reasonable, although still a bit of a surprise to my folks. Mr. G stated that a softer mattress like this second one did in fact provide better blood circulation and might avert bed sores more effectively than the harder, stiffer first one. However, my father loves lying on hard surfaces (even though he’s a side-sleeper) and he still liked the first 9-inch latex mattress. He kept insisting that the feel for him was best on mattress #1.

We looked at a few other mattresses but the first two were the ones that stuck in our minds. I was also thinking that, should I decide to get a mattress here, I might also consider going with the L&P S-cape base that he sells, considering it’s price is the same as most online prices. I found out I can acquire a Reverie Deluxe foundation second-hand from a friend now, but getting the new S-cape from Mr. G for a bit more money might be a better idea. Also, my own bias favouring the Reverie falls flat since my dad hates any massage function on these beds and finds the 58-60 degree head tilt angle sufficient on the S-cape. Augh, decisions, decisions… And I haven’t even taken the folks to nearby Urban Mattress yet!

Urban Mattress has the Tempurpedic electric beds (which I’m assuming are equivalent to Reverie models), so I was hoping to have Dad test out those models too. But he was exhausted after leaving SleepWorld, so we’ll have to save that for another day.

So I know the golden rule is NOT to make a purchase until visiting at least a few local mattress/foundation stores first, and I don’t plan to impuse buy anything right now. But for the moment, let’s assume that the only mattress with which my father will be satisfied is a resilient, firm mattress. What other equivalent, cheaper alternatives are there to the 9-inch dunlap organic/organic latex mattress that we saw? Or perhaps we should start considering foam equivalents that offer the same firmness (thanks mattresstx), even if they don’t last as long as latex? I figure as long as they’ll last 10-15 years for my folks, they’ll be happy. I always buy local to support businesses whenever I can, but most importantly so that dad is happy and comfortable with whatever we get. Thanks!

Hi austinsoul2012,

You’ve brought up quite a few points (some of them perhaps unkowingly) and I’ll try to deal with them one by one.

The easiest one is adjustable beds. If the massage feature is not important … then the lower cost models without the bells and whistles or with a wired remote would do just as well (Ergomotion 100, Reverie Essential, or the L&P ProMotion or Shipshape along with others). One feature that may be important to make sure it has is the “wallhugger” feature which keeps you close to a bedside table when you are raising the head of the bed.

The next issue is more complex and this has to do with “organic” latex vs natural vs blended.

The USDA “organic” certification is a certification that has to do with the the agricultural raw latex used in a latex core. For the raw latex to be certified as organic … the plantation has to be free of pesticide use for a number of years (in the surrounding area as well) and they have to follow organic farming methods. While natural latex may use the same methods … the organic certification process is very stringent and expensive so a product that uses it will be more expensive just because of the costs involved in certification not necessarily because the ingredients in the latex are any different.

This is just about the raw materials though and not about the actual latex mattress core. At the moment … there are only four companies that produce certified raw latex which is CoCo latex, Latex Green, Arpico, and Eco-Latex. Having the raw material certified though doesn’t mean the latex core that uses this certified raw material is certified organic. For this to happen then the factory and methods of foaming and production also have to be certified organic. Until recently this didn’t yet exist (only the raw latex was certified as an organic agricultural product). Latex green however was the first certified organic latex core rather than just being a latex core that uses certified organic latex. Each step of “certification” involves a cost both at the factory (which has to separate non certified materials and production runs from certified ones and follow certain other procedures) and with the certification process itself. Since this time there are now other GOLS certified producers (currently 4 in total) and if you register on the Control Union site you can see the list with a search here. You can also read more about organic latex certifications in post #2 here and in post #2 here.

There are also two factories in the US which are certified as following organic methods of manufacturing latex mattresses (OMI and Naturepedic). Both of these make some latex mattresses using GOLS certified latex cores (but only with their Dunlop latex mattresses). They both also produce non latex mattresses that are certified organic (all the materials are organic and the mattress itself has also been certified). NOTE ADDED: Soaring Heart also now makes mattresses that are certified organic as a complete mattress as well.

All of this is to say that “certified organic” can mean a more expensive product that may not have a significant benefit in terms of performance, safety, or even “purity” over 100% natural latex. There are a large number of consumers however who will willingly pay for the “certified organic” label because they prefer to support more organic and sustainable farming methods (see post #3 here).

So it’s up to each person to decide whether the “organic” label is worth any premium it may have over an equivalent but non certified material and this would be a personal and lifestyle choice. Wool can be the same and some of the best and cleanest, most “natural” wool made from the “happiest sheep” in the country and using all organic farming methods is not certified organic because of the expense of the certification process itself.

I personally would lean towards 100% natural Dunlop without the certification as being better value (it is usually a lower cost) but that’s just my own “personal value equation” and there is also a good argument that the extra cost of “certified organic” materials is worth the peace of mind that the certification brings with it.

There is no organic Talalay latex (or even Talalay that uses organic raw latex) although all the Talalay you will find in both blended and 100% natural has passed some very stringent testing for harmful chemicals and offgassing so it certainly wouldn’t be less safe than any other latex material. Blended Talalay in lower ILD’s may be more durable than the equivalent 100% natural Talalay but in firmer ILD’s (low/mid 20’s and higher) then this difference would probably “disappear”. Because they are so similar in performance … most people would consider blended Talalay to be better value than 100% natural talalay unless having an all natural latex content was important for other reasons.

100% natural Dunlop on the other hand is a denser material and even in lower ILD’s it would be very durable but because of the greater elasticity and performance of all natural Dunlop many people consider it to be better “value” than a synthetic or blended Dunlop for those who are willing to pay the premium although blended or synthetic Dunlop can also be a very good material that has many similarities to natural Dunlop and is also a very durable material.

Blended Dunlop is the lowest cost of the latex family and the more synthetic latex it contains the less it should cost. In a 50/50 blend or higher it can provide good cost benefits and still retain many of the benefits and properties of 100% natural Dunlop. There are also some new developments in continuous pour blended Dunlop (made on a belt instead of in a mold) that can also be very good value even in completely synthetic latex formulations. All of these would be a higher quality material IMO than most of the polyfoam that is used in mattresses.

So to recap … my personal preference would lean towards blended Talalay or 100% natural Dunlop as being the better value but of course preferences always depend on the person and the criteria that are most important to them…

Finally is the issue of firmness. All the different types of latex … organic Dunlop, 100% natural Dunlop, blended Dunlop, 100% natural Talalay, and blended Talalay and even mostly synthetic Dunlop (often 85% synthetic and 15% or less natural latex such as is used by Sealy or some of the Ikea Dunlop mattresses) all come in a wide range of softness/firmness levels so while different versions of Talalay and Dunlop have different feels and are also different in how quickly they get firmer with deeper compression … different layers of different firmness levels can be used in any of these materials to make mattresses with soft or firm comfort layers, soft or firm support layers and everything in between. In other words … the material or type of latex has little to do with the firmness of the mattress because different layering of the different types and firmness levels of the different types of latex can make either a softer or firmer mattress in either the comfort or support layers with any of them.

So the reason for all of this is so that you can decide on which material may be best for your “personal value equation” even if it is different from someone else. All of these types of latex can make a great mattress compared to other lower quality materials.

If you are looking for a way to lower your budget below the cost of an all latex mattress then a latex comfort layer over either an innerspring or polyfoam can make sense. The upper layers of a mattress are the the most important part of durability because they are the most subject to repeated compression and mechanical stress and for most people (but not all) … they contribute more to the overall “feel” of the mattress as well. In these cases (where the different types of latex aren’t enough to bring an “all latex” mattress into the budget range that is suitable or just as a matter of preference), then a latex/polyfoam or latex/innerspring hybrid can also have very good performance and value.

There is some very good value at SleepWorld on their website in both Talalay and even blended Dunlop and the trick would be to find the layering and firmness level in the comfort and support layers in the materials and thickness that put the mattress into your preferred budget range.

Thanks too for the great feedback about your experience at SleepWorld. I see you like “direct” as much as I do :slight_smile:

Hope this helps.


Terrific background info on Dunlop (organic, natural and blended) latex and Talalay (natural and blended). Thank you Phoenix! And after my father’s initial, favourable reaction to that organic 9-inch Dunlop latex mattress, I was pretty much set on a Dunlop core with Dunlop topper (with a preference for natural or even blended Dunlop due to price, as you’ve mentioned).

So there I was, all set to limit my Dad’s investment to a Dunlop natural or blended mattress. My Dad loves sleeping on firm, hard, high ILM surfaces so I thought I had this one figured out. Perfect. Heck with organic certification; I still can’t get my head around that $2000 price. With the information on the great quality of blended or natural Dunlop, I could go considerably lower in price and still get a terrific quality mattress for dad.

Well, this afternoon proved to add just a bit of confusion to my search.

After lunch, I was determined to go on one more local mattress visit, and that would be to “Urban Mattress” at the Gateway. I heard many good things about the staff there and I was not disappointed. My parents and I stepped into the shop and were greeted by the owner, a very nice and knowledgeable fellow named Shane. It was a very pleasant and educational experience, and he provided plenty of information about his foam and latex beds without pushing hard for a sale, just like my previous, enjoyable visit to Sleepworld. No stress or pressure, just a lot of effort put into determining what kind of surface my dad would like the most. Being that my dad was feeling rather weak and tired, he would sit on this mattress or that, but would not lie down no matter how often we asked. That made Shane’s job so much more difficult, since all my dad would do to test the mattress was sit on the edge of each mattress and feeling the pushback. It would have made a big difference if he took the time to lie down on his back or side so we can see how it would work out. No such luck. But hey, it was hard enough to convince him to get an adjustable bed, so I’ll take what I can get.

We tried different latex cores with foam tops , latex cores with latex tops (which were surprisingly very soft) , even the more firm foam top beds with inner spring support, but dad liked NONE of them. He kept complaining how all of the mattresses he tried were just too soft or uncomfortable for him. He still insisted the 9-inch Dunlop organic twin-XL ($2000) was still his favourite. So we were getting to the end of our rope, and I was wondering if there would be any mattress in this store that he liked. Heck with organic/natural/blended latex vs foam for the moment, let’s just see if something stands out. And finally, something did…

As we were about to give it all up and walked with Shane back to his cashier register to discuss a few things, my dad tried sitting on an Eco Visco 8-inch (polyfoam, yikes!). He actually liked that one, and after lying on it for a bit, he said he’d be fine with it. That kind of left me stunned, really. A polyfoam mattress was the last thing I was considering. But hey, if that’s what he wants…

The mattress (2 inches memory foam on top, 6 inches support poly foam) was one of the cheapest ones there (XL, $449), so I can’t help but wonder how much the low cost played into his thinking. And on an adjustable bed, I kinda wonder how well this polyfoam mattress will stand up the constant bending and moving. Especially since I’m so sold on latex already.

But this turned out to be a non-option anyways, cuz Shane was very backlogged on stock for a Twin XL. So backlogged that the wait would be at least 1 month, if not more.

You’re right, Phoenix, the easy decision really is the adjustable foundation. Reverie Deluxe or L&P S-cape, they’re similar and you can’t really go wrong with either.

It’s the mattress that’s causing so much indecision and difficulty. I’m really tempted to go online for one, but I really want to support local businesses here and the convenience of returning or changing locally purchased mattresses is an incredible advantage. And since this purchase is for health reasons, we don’t pay tax – which removes the online benefit.

It’s a nightmare trying to find the right mattress match for someone else. Sigh… :smiley:

Hi austinsoul2012,

I have talked with Shane on several occasions and as you mention he is knowledgeable and has always been very helpful. As a matter of fact … all the people I have talked with at the various Urban Mattress outlets have been the same and they are great to deal with.

This may have been part of the reason he felt they were so soft. Latex mattresses generally don’t have edge support and because of their “point elasticity” … when you sit on the edge they can feel softer than people are used to because each “part” can compress quite independently of the parts around it and the weight concentration when someone is sitting is very different from lying down. Even a very firm latex mattress can feel soft if you sit on the edge of it. Even regular mattresses though, depending on the edge support, will feel very different with sitting than with lying down so the perception of how a mattress will feel and perform will be skewed if they are only tested by sitting on the edge. I don’t know how much this may have played a role if he actually lay on the mattresses at Sleepworld.

There are some types of polyfoam which either for stiffness reasons or quality/durability reasons are not recommended for an adjustable bed but in most cases they would be fine even though polyfoam is not as flexible or elastic as latex. My bigger concern though would be the density of the memory foam and the overall durability of the mattress as you mentioned. Memory foam also takes time to soften and part of the reason he may have liked it may have been that it hadn’t had time to soften with body heat and felt firmer than it really was. in addition to this … memory foam is not “movement friendly” because it absorbs energy rather than returns it so it may also pose an issue with movement on the mattress for someone who had difficulty changing positions. This of course is just speculation as to the reasons he felt what he did but all in all … it wouldn’t seem to me to be the best choice for the circumstances and the restrictions that he faces … but then as you mentioned … who’s to argue with the person that will be sleeping on the mattress :slight_smile:

I can certainly sympathize with this … especially when that “someone” doesn’t lie down on the mattresses. The good news though is that at least your choices in terms of outlets and mattress selection are good ones. Making the “best” choice though may be more difficult it seems :slight_smile:


After good experiences with Sleepworld and Urban Mattress in Austin, I decided I exhausted my best local buy options and wanted to go online. For that, I wanted to check out olejostores.com as you, Phoenix, has recommended.

I wanted something roughly equivalent to Sleepworld’s 9-inch organic latex firm mattress, but without the high cost of going organic certified. If I had to put a figure to what I’m willing to spend, I’d say $600-800 is my range for something that’s natural Dunlop, even blended Dunlop if that’s all I could get. Yeah, my dad was big on the much cheaper 2-inch memory foam / 6-inch polyfoam Evo Visco mattress, but since that’s out of stock I’d like to revisit my latex preference.

So after providing the specs to Olejostores, I got the following recommendation:
Eclipse Victoria 6-inch Natural Latex Foam Mattress with Organic Cotton Cover
(Note: Removed 404 link: with footprint: olejostores.com/eclipse_victoria_6_inch_natural_latex_foam_mattress_with_organic_cotton_cover-23721.aspx

Looks promising, but I’ve never heard about the quality of Eclipse latex natural Dunlop mattresses. Do you have an opinion on this particular model? I just want something as close to the firmness and quality of Dunlop certified organic latex, and it sounds like natural Dunlop is what I want.

Also, is there a specific mattress size that’s ideal for an adjustable bed? I was wondering if 6 inches is more ideal than 8 inches cuz of all that bending and moving.

This is not exactly going to serve as a hospital bed but my dad is going to spend most of his time lying in this adjustable bed in the living room to watch TV, sleep and eat. He’s not very mobile and I have to make sure the mattress doesn’t form hot spots around him and hopefully he’ll be less prone to bed sores.

I think that’s the hardest part – persuading people who are convinced they need a firm bed when a slightly softer one (for better blood circulation) might serve them better. Well, I did read on this site that it’s best to go with firm first if you’re not too sure, cuz you can go from firm-to-soft a lot easier than going from soft-to-firm… :slight_smile:

Hi austinsoul2012,

I’m a little confused why you are looking at the uncertainty of an online purchase (especially when it may end up the same as your experience in the stores) when there is such good value available locally. For example at Sleepworld, the 7" blended Dunlop mattress is similar to the one you are looking at (although it is blended Dunlop not natural) and could probably be chosen in a firm ILD and it is $699 for a twin XL set. The 9" talalay could probably also be made in a firm configuration is $1299 for the set and there are others as well. These are all better value than what you are looking at so I’m thinking I must be missing something.

If you are looking for an an online mattress purchase though for whatever reason, then my recommendations are in post #21 here which has a list of the members of the site which, specialize in working with their customers over the phone, and have some of the best online mattress values in the country. There are a wide range of latex choices here but there is also better value here than what you are looking at.

Although Olejo has some very good value in adjustable beds and some of their mattresses have above average value as well (including the Eclipse that you mentioned) … they are not in the same value range for mattresses as what you will find locally or from members of the site. Some of these also offer layer exchanges (where you can exchange a layer of a multiple layer mattress to make adjustments after a purchase if it’s needed).

If I was in your shoes I would be speaking with the two outlets you have talked with locally and find your best choice between them because they would have pretty much anything in latex you could buy at Olejo and probably better value but if you are looking to purchase online then I would look at the outlets that are in the list.


Sorry for the confusion, I should have explained myself better. I wasn’t by any means ruling out buy local; I was looking online just to make sure I wasn’t overlooking an online option. I figured two local shops that I liked plus an online browse would suffice as enough research to reach a decision. I figured that by checking out at least 3 shops (2 local, 1 online), that’ll be enough to say that yeah, I did enough looking around and legwork to secure the best value for the best price without missing out on the best deal. Given your assurance that quaility and support would be ideal from a local shop, I think I’m set for a local purchase.

It’s becoming evident to me now that I won’t be able to get valid feedback from my father on what would be best for him, since he won’t go through some basic motions (lying on a mattress, lying on his side) to test out a good fit. I can’t say I blame him; he feels weak and nauseous most of the time after dialysis and is impatient most of the time. So I’m gonna have to go with what I’ve read here and try to make a good value purchase that would best suit him.

You kinda hit on one of the concerns I had for the non-organic Dunlop Sleepworld offers; the blended Dunlop had me hesitate, since I was so keen on natural Dunlop as a big preference. And I wasn’t even thinking of the talalay models due to my Dunlop bias. I just assumed talalay would be noticeably more soft than Dunlop, without realizing that talalay could be modified to be more firm.

With your assurance that the Sleepworld blended Dunlop and blended talalay models are in fact better products than the natural talalay product I was looking at from Olejo, I think I’m ready to make another trip back to see Mr. Guerin.

Perhaps my perspective has been a bit too tunnel-visioned in that it centered strictly on the fact that natural Dunlop (olejo online) >> blended Dunlop (sleepworld) >> blended talalay (sleepworld), and overlooked other important factors such as the greater support, flexibility and build quality you get from buying local. Sigh. :slight_smile:

Hi austinsoul2012,

I think that looking online is a valuable reference point and if the difference in “value” is significant then it is well worth considering. I think though that my confusion was that the source you were looking at wasn’t the best value online source and was actually more than your local options. Had the online source been one of the better value choices … then it would certainly have made more sense.

One of the difficulties you are facing (as I know you know) is that your actual testing may not reflect your father’s experience when he is actually lying on the mattress because sitting is very different. Because of this … his options after purchase may be important. You may have to go by what in “theory” is best for him modified of course by the few mattresses that he actually did lie down on.

Bear in mind that any material can come in any level of firmness and also that a thicker mattress will tend towards being softer than a thinner one if the ILD’s of the material are the same. I would also take into account the differences in materials because they are part of the “value” of the mattress.

The product you were looking at from Olejo was actually 100% natural Dunlop not 100% natural Talalay (which is a more expensive material). Blended Dunlop and blended Talalay are not “better products” … just better value IMO in the models sold at sleepworld. The lowest cost/quality version of latex is blended Dunlop. 100% natural Dunlop and blended Talalay are in the same cost range. 100% natural Talalay and organic Dunlop are the most costly (and in most cases are also roughly comparable). In most instances the 100% natural Dunlop and the blended Talalay represent the best “value” although this of course depends on the prices being charged relative to the cost and quality of the material.

If you are comparing organic Dunlop then I would use the list as a reference point because there are several outlets there that sell organic Dunlop mattresses for those that are willing to pay the extra price. A couple of examples include …

Twin or TwinXL Mattress Made with Certified Organic Latex , World's First Mattress With Certified Organic Latex, Latex Mattresses-Talalay and Dunlop, All Products This is an 8" mattress that uses a 6" layer of organic Dunlop with a 2" comfort layer of the same material and has a zip organic cotton/organic wool cover.

https://www.sleepez.com/organic.htm This uses two 3" layers of 100% natural Dunlop with a 2" layer of the same material and also has a zip organic cotton/organic wool cover. Organic Dunlop is an upgrade option.

There are also a number of outlets on the list that sell “all latex” mattress using either 100% Dunlop and/or blended or 100% natural Talalay in various layering combinations and styles and with different degrees of ability to customize the construction and/or exchange layers after purchase. They include …

http://www.customsleepdesign.com/ (these are more “custom designed” and may be out of the price range you are looking at)

The next two have various types of latex mattresses that can be customized but the mattress is “finished” without a zip cover so individual layers can’t be exchanged after purchase.

In addition to this, there are a couple that sell latex/polyfoam hybrids (latex comfort layers and polyfoam support cores) for those that are looking for a lower budget mattress that still has the benefits of a latex comfort layer. This would be a cost saving choice (similar to how using blended Dunlop is a cost saving choice). They are …

http://www.latexmattresscompany.com/ecbuprlaco.html (same as mattresses.net)

Brooklyn Bedding amazon Store

At Sleepworld, it seems to me that their best “value” is in the lowest cost/quality version of latex that they carry (which is the blended Ddunlop) and in their blended Talalay and 100% natural Talalay mattresses alll of which compare favorably to some of the best online prices. Their organic Dunlop on the other hand doesn’t compare as well to similar online choices and is significantly more. It seems to me that their prices for organic Dunlop (as opposed to the other types of latex they carry) are quite high although there may be reasons for this that I’m not aware of (having to do with the quilting/ticking or other factors etc).

So the bottom line is that I would look at your two local options … discuss with them the layering and mattress style that may best suit your father (using “theory” and his experience) … and also talk about what your recourse is if you “guess” wrong and need to make any changes after the purchase.

I would then compare this to your better online choices in terms of value and any options you have after a purchase to make adjustments.

If local value is comparable to online value … then local can be a little less “risky”. If local value carries a premium that is too high compared to similar mattresses sold online (I usually use about 20% as a guideline) … then I would consider an online purchase as a more serious option.

Thinner mattresses will conform better than thicker ones and it will also depend on the type and firmness of the mattress layers but in general terms anything up to about 9" of latex is ideal and up to about 12" of latex works well but when you go beyond this the mattress may not conform as well to the adjustments of the bed.

This is very true in most cases. If a local outlet though will swap out a layer if necessary for a reasonable cost or if you have a mattress where layers can be exchanged …then making soft to firm adjustments becomes a realistic option … although it’s still a good idea to err on the slightly firm side if necessary.

I hope that this has cleared up any “muddy waters” or confusion on either my part or yours :slight_smile:


Phoenix - I hope you don’t mind if I jump in on the post.

I have been shopping at SleepWorld and I’m glad you posted about the differences in Organic versus non-organic, natural versus blended.

The store has Organic Dunlop:

Royal 6 inch - $999
Majestic 8 inch - $1699
Imperial 10 inch - $1799

Seems excessive that there is a $600 premium for 2 extra inches on the Majestic but only $100 premium for another 2 inches on the Imperial. Do you know why that could be the case?

They also have Organic Talalay:
The website doesn’t say it’s Talalay, but judging by the premium over the Majestic, I’m assuming it is. I think the website could be improved by being very deliberate about calling it “Dunlop” or “Talalay” so the consumer can be informed.

Anne 6 inch - $2299
Grace 9 inch - $2799.

The Anne has a $1300 premium over the Royal and the only difference is the Talalay process versus the Dunlop process. Is that typical in this industry?

Lastly, they have another Talalay mattress that I’m not sure if it’s organic or not:

Diana 9 inch - $2099.

The website describes it as “9 Inch Plush Organic/Natural Talalay Foam Rubber Latex”. It can’t be organic, because then it would be the same product as the Grace at $2799.

I’m very confused at this point. I’d like to try all of these mattresses to see which one feels the best, but I want to get one for my wife and I for good value. Our original budget was $1000 and now it looks like it will have to double to get something of high quality!

We prefer a firmer bed and from reading your information, I’m leaning towards a 100% natural Talalay bed, but I’m not sure if the Diana or the Imperial or the Anne (all in same price range) are the best value.

Can you help shed some light for me?


I’m not Phoenix, but I took a look at the website for Sleepworld and it appears that the difference between the “Grace” and the “Diana” is that the “Grace” is made of certified organic latex, presumably meaning the trees the rubber sap comes from are certified to be grown according to some “organic” standard. The “organic/natural” is not certified. It seems to be common for latex mattress manufacturers/retailers to use the term “organic” to mean “not synthetic/blended” latex. I agree that it’s confusing.

For the Dunlop latex options, it appears the prices on the “Royal” were lowered as indicated by the strikethrough line in the original price for a Queen of $1399. Perhaps they are phasing out the 6" Royal model and are clearance pricing them, hence the larger difference between the 6" and 9" than between the 9" and 12".

Phoenix, after looking at your recommended websites I saw this product:

This is an 8 in. 100% natural Talalay mattress that is only $1395! With tax and a wooden foundation, the total is only $1761.

Compared to SleepWorld’s Diana, which is 9 in. of Talalay (not sure if it’s 100% natural), with a wooden foundation for $2099 + tax.

Am I comparing Apples to Apples? If so, it seems like the only reason to pay $338 + $173 (tax) extra for local purchase is the fact that you can return it more easily. Is this premium of $511 something that is typical for stores versus web?


Good point…I’m definitely going to be hoping and praying that the Royal feels great so I can save some money! Seems like a great price compared to the others.

Regarding the Grace and Diana, a $700 premium seems pretty huge (33% premium) just for organic!

Reverie actually has a sleep system which includes the mattress as well as the adjustable base, it is blended latex and very worth the time to consider. These are what are in suites on Celebrity Cruise lines.

Hi FavoriteHOMEboy,

Post #6 of this topic goes into more detail about the differences between the different types of synthetic, blended, 100% natural, and certified organic latex in both Talalay and Dunlop versions. You may be mixing up some of the different types.

It’s also an easy “temptation” to reduce a mattress purchase down to the “commodity” level of dollars per inch of latex and while this is certainly a part of the value of a mattress … it also excludes more than it includes. Part of the “value” of a mattress of course includes all the other components of the mattress besides just the latex itself or even the type of latex itself. Besides the other components such as the ticking and quilting or any other materials that are part of the mattress, and any differences in methods of construction, even more important yet are things like the ability to find a mattress that ends up in the ideal range of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) and also the service at the store, the “risk” involved with the purchase, the options available both before and after a purchase in terms of customizing or exchanges or adjustments to the mattress, what else may be included with the mattress purchase besides just the mattress itself, the other services and options offered by the outlet, and all the many intangibles that can’t be separated from the mattress purchase itself regardless of the type or “inches” of latex. In addition to this … the “value” of materials like organic latex can also be more or less important or “valuable” to each individual person. There are some who place a very high premium on buying certified organic and some where this is less important while most are somewhere in the middle of this range. the same holds true for buying 100% natural vs blended or Dunlop vs Talalay.

Reducing all of this to a formula would not take into account the “value” of the many variations in each person’s preferences.

My role is to provide some accurate information and perspective to the process of deciding on “value” so that each person can decide for themselves which of the many parts of a mattress purchase and different types of mattress materials, services, and outlets represents “great value” to them and help them make more meaningful comparisons rather than create a formula that determines value for others (which I don’t believe is possible or even desirable).

This would normally be the type of question best asked of the manufacturer themselves (and perhaps posting for feedback on their answers) because they are the ones who would know the reasons behind their pricing. It could involve other costs in terms of materials or construction difficulty or time that are not so obvious (such as cutting a 6" core or laminating or material variations) or differences in the cover for example where I don’t know all the details that are involved.

I believe that the 3 models you listed are Natural Dunlop and the other materials (such as the ticking quilting) are organic.

Dunlop comes in a 6" layer so it is fairly simple to surround it with a ticking/quilting while thinner layers that are added to this need to be cut … possible laminated … and are more difficult and time consuming to handle and construct so this could be part of the differences between them … but again I don’t know all the details and they could give you much more accurate answers.

Their “certified organic” line is more expensive and whether the difference in price was “worth it” would depend on each individual.

There is no certified organic Talalay but of course there are mattresses that use 100% natural Talalay (which is a more expensive material than either blended Talalay or 100% natural dunlop) and where the other components are certified organic. I also wish that every website included every detail but from running a website myself and knowing the challenges in keeping it up to date in the face of many competing time demands and changes in information and in mattresses … I have always thought that looking at a website in most cases is just a preliminary to a more detailed conversation. In my daily research where I talk with many retail outlets … it’s usually the exception when what is on a website is the same as what they currently carry and it is a rare exception that the information is complete in every detail that a consumer may want to know.

Don’t forget that firmness or softness has nothing to do with the material itself. All the different types of latex come in firm and soft versions and can be layered either by themselves or in combinations in many different ways to create either a softer or firmer comfort layer and a softer or firmer support layer. If “certified organic” is important to you … then of course the extra cost and “benefits” of the certification would be part of your “value equation”. If the certification of the latex wasn’t as important but you wanted certified organic wool and cotton in the cover … then this too would be part of your value equation.

So what this all means is that there is really no definition of “better or worse” value except in an apples to apples comparison with another mattress that includes similar services, similar risks, similar options before and after the purchase, similar additional benefits, similar outlets, and similar intangibles. When you are comparing one type of material, construction, or layering to another (such as certified organic Dunlop to 100% natural Dunlop) … then the relative value of each is a personal decision based on what is important to each individual. The “cost” of each material (synthetic latex costs less than natural latex and talalay is a more costly process than Dunlop) is just part of it’s relative “value”.

As I mentioned in the other post I linked to earlier in this thread … my own personal “value equation” puts blended Talalay and 100% natural Dunlop in the “better value” range of latex but my preferences are not the “definition” of value and apply to me alone. There are many others who are just as informed about each variation who may perceive value very differently than me.

So I hope this helps to clarify things and most importantly helps you to ask “why” you may have some of the preferences you do and whether they are based on subjective or objective factors. There is no right or wrong in any of this … only preferences and “apples to apples” comparisons between similar mattresses and all the other “pieces” that are attached to the mattress purchase itself.


Hi once again FavoriteHOMEboy,

This may or may not be “apples to apples” and to know you would first need to confirm with a couple of conversations if the materials are the same. This includes the latex and the other components such as the ticking/quilting. I would exclude the foundation if you are comparing mattresses because you can use either foundation with either mattress and it’s quite likely that they are not exactly the same quality or price. You would then need to assign some kind of “value” to any differences between them.

Next you would need to compare any other differences in options that are offered by each manufacturer (ability to customize before and after purchase, warranties if that is important to you, level of service, differences in design, importance of buying local, and any other differences between the two manufacturers that are important to you.

Next you would need to assign some kind of “value” to the “risk” attached to each outlet and your ability to test a mattress vs buying it online. How important is this to you? How much confidence do you have in going in each direction and what are the costs of a “mistake”.

Add to this any other intangibles of service, quality, or value that are most important to you and you have the components of your “personal value equation”. Because some of these differences can’t be assigned a monetary value … you will need to trust your “educated intuition” about which has better value to YOU.

Again … when you are choosing between good and good … it can be fruitless to ask anyone else which is “better” because only you can know your own definition of “better”. First fill in all the blanks that can be filled in so that your choices include the objective differences as much as possible but there will always be many intangibles that only you can assign “value” to that are also a major part of the decision. For example I have often mentioned a 20% premium as a “good” guideline for the lower risk of a local purchase but the most important part of this is not the 20% … but for each person to recognize that there can be a lower risk and to help them assign a value for themselves. Sometimes choosing between your final choices can be the most difficult part of all.

When I was making my final choices with all the competing variables of my last few remaining choices (and getting down to the last few was difficult enough and took weeks and had little to do with monetary “value” by this point) … the “piece” that tipped the balance was not anything to do with price (they were all great prices and value) or even that one would be 'better" than another (they all seemed great) but because for some unknown reason I decided I wanted a latex quilting in my mattress. This isn’t because a latex quilting is any better in performance than any other design that would work for me … only that I wanted to try it “just because” and this was the final “straw” that tipped the balance towards my final choice.

So in the end … only you can decide which direction to go after filling in as many blanks as you can … and when you are down to this kind of “good vs good” … there is no right or wrong, only preferences. My only recommendation is that you spend the time to talk with the manufacturers or sellers of each of your competing choices for “long enough” to have all your questions answered rather than going by the “commodity specs” alone.